[Steve Wilson]

the line of the putt right next to the hole.  I was taught, and I'm sure everyone else here was too, that you don't step onto the line of other people's putts.  How do you avoid stepping in the line and leaving an impression if you rock back and forth.  I presume the caddy is trying to read the slope with his feet, but how is this acceptable?  Asking for a friend. I think it was Morikawa's caddy but maybe there are others doing it as well. 

[Mike Wagner]

the line of the putt right next to the hole.  I was taught, and I'm sure everyone else here was too, that you don't step onto the line of other people's putts.  How do you avoid stepping in the line and leaving an impression if you rock back and forth.  I presume the caddy is trying to read the slope with his feet, but how is this acceptable?  Asking for a friend. I think it was Morikawa's caddy but maybe there are others doing it as well.

Let's just hope the practice of straddling the line anywhere between your ball and the hole is banned ASAP. They banned anchoring because of the visual. This is 1000X worse.

[Pete_Pittock]

The practice is wide-spread and has been going on for at least five years, I forgot what the method is called. 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

The practice is wide-spread and has been going on for at least five years, I forgot what the method is called.

Over 10, actually, and it's not going to go away. The footprints don't last on PGA Tour greens. It's not like the guy would want to risk standing in his own line if that was the case.

[A.G._Crockett]

When one is taught AimPoint, you are taught to feel the low side at the ball, then walk down the low side for a couple of more “reads”; they specifically tell you to avoid any player’s line, including your own. I think that straddling is almost certainly more accurate, though, and I understand why Tour players want that read.


Also, I think if you watch closely, you’ll realize that you’ll never see a Tour player or caddie straddling anywhere near the possible line of another player.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

When one is taught AimPoint, you are taught to feel the low side at the ball, then walk down the low side for a couple of more “reads”; they specifically tell you to avoid any player’s line, including your own. I think that straddling is almost certainly more accurate, though, and I understand why Tour players want that read.

They're taught (we teach them) to straddle the line nowadays, AG.

But we still emphasize avoiding the lines of others, too, yes.

[jeffwarne]

When one is taught AimPoint, you are taught to feel the low side at the ball, then walk down the low side for a couple of more “reads”; they specifically tell you to avoid any player’s line, including your own. I think that straddling is almost certainly more accurate, though, and I understand why Tour players want that read.

They're taught (we teach them) to straddle the line nowadays, AG.

But we still emphasize avoiding the lines of others, too, yes.

All that's true.
But why avoid the lines of other players? if "It the footprints don't last on PGA Tour greens"
So which is it? Does it do damage or not?, if not, just step right in my line.
(and of course now you're reading my putt for me and guessing my line. and often stepping in it anyway)
And what about the competitions played on non PGA Tour greens(whatever those are) Last I checked they get rain and soft conditions too.


With player AND caddie doing it, especially increasingly nearer and nearer the hole, that's (at least) twice as many footprints near the hole.
We were taught to avoid stepping near the hole as kids(why)-now it's encouraged -in stereo.
The thing is, you're not JUST protecting the lines of others by avoiding extra walking/straddling near the hole, you're protecting the lines of future players.


"Fresh greens" are an advantage and called "fresh greens" for a reason.
They are decidedly less fresh near the hole with this practice widespread-especially for later groups.


Who doesn't think greens are better after 50 rounds than say 150.
Then multiply that by neither player nor caddie having respect for avoiding area near the cup.
(see Colin's caddie with feet 6 inches from hole-where a ball is losing speed)
YES, I know a player has to get close to the hole to retrieve his ball-that's unavoidable, but is occurring on TOP of the rest of the process either way.


Not against the rules by the way, but neither was caddie lining up a player quite recently.
Sometimes certain practices take time to catch on and then eventually  be eliminated.

[Tim Martin]

Having Keegan Bradley recently win at the Travelers will only increase the practice as he is a devotee of the system. Is there definitive evidence that straddling around the hole has no adverse effect? I’ve been taught my entire golfing life not to step in someone else’s line.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

But why avoid the lines of other players? if "It the footprints don't last on PGA Tour greens"

For the same reason that players don't step on "through lines" even if they're pretty far from the hole. On the PGA Tour, it's custom.

So which is it? Does it do damage or not?, if not, just step right in my line.

I generally don't care if people step in my lines, except two rare situations: they didn't knock the sand off their shoes or it's VERY soft and you can see their footprints after they've walked away.

And what about the competitions played on non PGA Tour greens(whatever those are) Last I checked they get rain and soft conditions too.

That's why we teach players to get their reads while being respectful of other lines. Players aren't all playing in firmer conditions.

(see Colin's caddie with feet 6 inches from hole-where a ball is losing speed)

There's no point standing that close. I'm not going to defend a caddie doing something we don't advise/teach.

[jeffwarne]

(see Colin's caddie with feet 6 inches from hole-where a ball is losing speed)

There's no point standing that close. I'm not going to defend a caddie doing something we don't advise/teach.

exactly-though I'm sure it gives Colin and his caddie more confidence and make it "more routine"


No idea what the answer is, or what if anything will change, but more straddling definitely produces more footprints,which can make a very minor or major difference by the end of a long day, (we both agree there is a point where it's too close to the cup)

[Mark Smolens]

At the time I took the Aim Point Express class, it wasn't legal to touch the line of your putt, so we weren't taught to straddle putts (except from right over the ball for putts inside 6-8 feet). I assumed that after the rules changed, that the teaching of Aim Point had also changed -- tho based upon Erik's post it would appear not.


I'm wondering what Dave Pelz would say about the new concept of reading greens with your feet from right next to the hole. Here's Dave's comments about the lumpy donut as one of the reasons that seemingly well-struck puts sometimes just don't go in:


“The lumpy doughnut is the congregation of footprints within a radius of 6 feet from the hole. The last 12 inches is almost footprint free and form the doughnut’s hole. This creates a volcanic like entrance ramp that can have significant impact on a ball’s line relative to its speed. The average 500+ footprints a foursome makes in the green take up to 2 hours to spring back up to normal shape. Fresh footprints are to the golf ball like a curb is to a pedestrian crossing the street… in other words, your ball can “trip” on its way to the hole.“


In my recent forays into caddying in qualifiers for a buddy, I read the greens using Aim Point, but would NEVER consider doing so in close proximity to a hole...

[Erik J. Barzeski]

At the time I took the Aim Point Express class, it wasn't legal to touch the line of your putt, so we weren't taught to straddle putts (except from right over the ball for putts inside 6-8 feet). I assumed that after the rules changed, that the teaching of Aim Point had also changed -- tho based upon Erik's post it would appear not.

I think you misread:

They're taught (we teach them) to straddle the line nowadays, AG.

We teach straddling the line now, and have since the rules change.

I'm wondering what Dave Pelz would say about the new concept of reading greens with your feet from right next to the hole. Here's Dave's comments about the lumpy donut as one of the reasons that seemingly well-struck puts sometimes just don't go in:

Dave also tried to rip off AimPoint and sell it on KickStarter or something a few years ago. 

[Tim Martin]

At the time I took the Aim Point Express class, it wasn't legal to touch the line of your putt, so we weren't taught to straddle putts (except from right over the ball for putts inside 6-8 feet). I assumed that after the rules changed, that the teaching of Aim Point had also changed -- tho based upon Erik's post it would appear not.

I think you misread:

They're taught (we teach them) to straddle the line nowadays, AG.

We teach straddling the line now, and have since the rules change.

I'm wondering what Dave Pelz would say about the new concept of reading greens with your feet from right next to the hole. Here's Dave's comments about the lumpy donut as one of the reasons that seemingly well-struck puts sometimes just don't go in:

Dave also tried to rip off AimPoint and sell it on KickStarter or something a few years ago. 

duplicate post-sorry

[Tim Martin]

At the time I took the Aim Point Express class, it wasn't legal to touch the line of your putt, so we weren't taught to straddle putts (except from right over the ball for putts inside 6-8 feet). I assumed that after the rules changed, that the teaching of Aim Point had also changed -- tho based upon Erik's post it would appear not.

I think you misread:

They're taught (we teach them) to straddle the line nowadays, AG.

We teach straddling the line now, and have since the rules change.

I'm wondering what Dave Pelz would say about the new concept of reading greens with your feet from right next to the hole. Here's Dave's comments about the lumpy donut as one of the reasons that seemingly well-struck puts sometimes just don't go in:

Dave also tried to rip off AimPoint and sell it on KickStarter or something a few years ago. 

Pelz admittedly assigned green reading a bigger part of the putting process than he had previously but I don’t see where there is any ripoff of AimPoint. He was quoted with this statement below and goes on to say that he used Kickstarter rather than a regular publisher because it was a more flexible process. For someone who’s had a fair amount of success as a published instructional author I would think he could have easily gone that route if he wanted.


As to other methods people use to read greens such as Aimpoint, Pelz doesn't want to discredit them, but simply says there's a better, more scientific way to approach green reading.
"We show exactly what to look for on the greens, and how to determine "how much break to play" in a very different way. And then we show how to get really good at it," he said.

[Matthew Galloway]

(see Colin's caddie with feet 6 inches from hole-where a ball is losing speed)

There's no point standing that close. I'm not going to defend a caddie doing something we don't advise/teach.



And caddies just levitate to the hole to place the flag back in the cup?


Should just ban caddies from standing on the green altogether 

[JohnVDB]

If a player’s line is damaged by the actions of the player or the caddie, it can be repaired. 


Before 2019 you couldn’t stand or even touch your line of putt (with a few limited exceptions).  It was extremely difficult tell if a player who was walking alongside his line of putt and possibly making a practice swing and the high point of the break was touching the line and they weren’t gaining anything by doing so. Therefore, the prohiyas removed.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Pelz admittedly assigned green reading a bigger part of the putting process than he had previously but I don’t see where there is any ripoff of AimPoint.

It's off topic, so I'll be brief. If it wasn't off-topic AND it was six years ago when he was doing this, I'd have a lot more info at my fingertips to show you.

[Tim Martin]

Pelz admittedly assigned green reading a bigger part of the putting process than he had previously but I don’t see where there is any ripoff of AimPoint.

It's off topic, so I'll be brief. If it wasn't off-topic AND it was six years ago when he was doing this, I'd have a lot more info at my fingertips to show you.

When you say he tried to “rip off AimPoint and sell it on Kickstarter or something” that statement although nebulous carries a derogatory tone. Regardless of the timeframe I would expect you could back up your assertion. I can’t say I’m surprised.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

When you say he tried to “rip off AimPoint and sell it on Kickstarter or something” that statement although nebulous carries a derogatory tone. Regardless of the timeframe I would expect you could back up your assertion. I can’t say I’m surprised.

It was derogatory, and again, it's off topic (not to mention six years in the past, with nothing having come of it).

Have a good rest of your fourth, Troll Tim.

[Tim Martin]

When you say he tried to “rip off AimPoint and sell it on Kickstarter or something” that statement although nebulous carries a derogatory tone. Regardless of the timeframe I would expect you could back up your assertion. I can’t say I’m surprised.

It was derogatory, and again, it's off topic.

Have a good rest of your fourth, Troll Tim.

DE-You’ve never pursued anything off topic when it suited your narrative. Sorry I forgot.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

DE-You’ve never pursued anything off topic when it suited your narrative. Sorry I forgot.

Great contribution, Troll Tim. Way to advance the discussion, as usual.

[Tim Martin]

DE-You’ve never pursued anything off topic when it suited your narrative. Sorry I forgot.

Great contribution, Troll Tim. Way to advance the discussion, as usual.

I’m still interested in anything that might back up your accusation against Pelz that is fact based rather than opinion.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I’m still interested in anything that might back up your accusation against Pelz that is fact based rather than opinion.

Cool.

Enjoy the fireworks.

[Rob Marshall]

DE-You’ve never pursued anything off topic when it suited your narrative. Sorry I forgot.

Great contribution, Troll Tim. Way to advance the discussion, as usual.

I’m still interested in anything that might back up your accusation against Pelz that is fact based rather than opinion.

Tim,
There are two pros on this thread, one always has good stuff, the other I just laugh at. That’s all you can do.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

There are two pros on this thread, always has good stuff, the other I just laugh at. That’s all you can do.

Troll Twin right on cue with his typical contribution. Truth is, Rob, you don't just "laugh." You troll, and you make derogatory comments, and you poke, and you quote and reply. You could just "laugh" and ignore, but you don't.

I will again propose that you simply ignore me. Laugh all you want (ignorance is bliss, they say), but ignore me. Don't reply. Don't quote. And I'll ignore you both, too. Accept or don't. It really won't affect my life much either way.

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