[Mike Hendren]

Hmmmm... back nine at SH v. back nine at Cypress?  You know I love SH, and those are two GREAT par 3's on that nine, but well... even I can't give the nod to Mullen there.

#16 at CP is IMO the finest golf hole (Not just par 3 but hole) on the planet.  #15 is one of the best 3's on the planet.

Tom & David, what am I missing?  Is the 15th at CPC really that great?  Unparalleled beauty, no doubt.  Huckster, perhaps I am biased since I hit the green with a 9-iron in a 40 mph breeze with my first swing of the day  I must also admit to being in lust with the 17th at SH.

Do please explain the greatness of CPC's 15th.  I fear you are both correct and once again I "don't get it."

Regards,

Mike

[Steve Lapper]

Although not absolute by any means, Somerset Hills certainly is among the finest set of 3 pars that might be measured. They might well be Tillie's best collective group out of all of his designs. The redan remains among the country's top 3 or 4 examples and the short 12th is an absolute classic. The 8th and 16th are no slouches either and in aggregate represent as fine a set as PVGC or Prairie Dunes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

How could I forget YALE.

P Turner,

The variety in the set of par 3's at The Knoll is excellent.

I've always liked # 3, the Redan at The Knoll.
Remember, that some bunkers were removed that might give it a more challenging look,  In addition, the green originally went all the way down the hill, making it a very unusual par 3, especially for a Redan.

Don't forget that on the Eden hole, # 17, the key rear bunker, a large and important bunker was removed.  You may have played the hole when that bunker no longer existed, and that could affect you evaluation of the hole.

Restored, both holes would be on a par with the Biarritz and the Short.

Overall, it's a pretty good mix of par 3's.  With that variety,
one shouldn't tire of playing them day in and day out.

[THuckaby2]

David:

OUCH re Plum Hollow.  Some day.....

Mike:

You are not alone in not seeing greatness in 15 at Cypress.  A certain contrarian expat living in Scotland called it a simple wedge, where no one could ever make a double bogey.  Having witnessed several doubles, I'd disagree.... But beyond that, it comes down to this:  if DIFFICULTY is your main criterion for greatness of a par 3, then yes, #15 at CPC is not great.  It is after all 135 yards at the most, the green isn't that small, the bunkers aren't that deep, and the ocean isn't all that close to any pin.

My take is that difficulty is typically not at the top of my criteria for greatness of any golf hole, although difficulty at the top extremes will always be considered (as it is on the next hole!).  If a golf hole "moves me", as #15 most definitely does, due to the beauty, where it falls in the round, the historic things that have occurred there, the "fun" of the shot due to wind or nooks and crannies of a green, then it is a great hole.  #15 at CPC has all of those things.

The two holes you mention at SH have all of those things as well, and #13 most definitely belongs in a conversation of great par threes.  But comparing apples to apples, you have two long par threes and two short par threes on the back nines of these two courses.

Is 13 SH really a better hole than 16 Cypress?

Is 17 SH really a better hole than 15 Cypress?

Reasonable minds may differ, but I gotta go with CPC on each of those assessments, although it is VERY close and we are talking four fantastic golf holes.

You wanna discuss something where I doubt any of us will differ on the superiority of SH over CPC?  Par FIVES.

TH

ps - to Patrick Mucci - good call re Yale - I believe you have me there also!

[SPDB]

Although I agree with Pat that par 3s need variety, who can dispute that the 4 at Winged Foot (W) are, as a collection, Tillie's toughest, and, perhaps, his best?

[Mike Hendren]

Tom, standing in the 18th fairway of SH looking back, I was blown away at the natural green site for the 17th.  Its bunkering is far more penal than CPC's 15th and both are equally exposed to the wind.  ANY pin placement on SH 17 is difficult, though the back is roomier.  The size of the green at CPC 15 makes the wind less of a factor.  I think SH 17 is one-half shot harder.  As for beauty, it's a push, though SH gets the benefit of the windmill and serpentine 18th fairway as a backdrop.  Please, don't go and start mumbling about "the tunnel of trees."  I can walk out my back door through the woods

I would never argue that any hole is superior to CPC's 16th.  How great is a hole, however, that requires one to make triple-bogey just to retain his manhood?  (DMoriarty - don't answer that.)  I don't mind hitting a 3-wood to the 13th at SH, but I sure as heck don't like having to hit a career driver just to make the front bunker at CPC's 16th.  I confess my thinking is Goodalean.  

On the Hillbilly scale, I give SH 13 and 17 a 9 and 10, and CPC's 15 and 16 a 7 and 10, respectively.  Maybe untouchable was a poor choice of word.  

Regards,

Mike

[THuckaby2]

SPDB - that sounds good to me... and I know about #10 at WF, you know, 2iron into someone's bed room or whatever was said... but describe the rest for me.  Never been there, don't remember from watching the majors held there.

Thanks!

TH

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

We shall have to agree to disagree, which is certainly fine, because beauty is after all most definitely in the eye of the beholder.  And whereas during my time at SH, my purple haze of joy was accentuated by the beauty of #17 without a doubt, I never went weak at the knees on any par 3 hole there like I did on 16 tee at Cypress.

It's also clear that you value difficulty more than I do.  Hey, I took many high numbers on each par 3 at SH, so I'm with ya, they are tough golf holes.

Neither moves me, however, like their seaside cousins near me do.  In terms of judging by success or failure on a golf hole, making a few pars on 16 CPC thrilled me far more than birdieing either 13 or 17 at SH, all of which I have done... I guess again it's in the eye of the beholder - making that carry is just one of life's great thrills, so I love it just FOR the difficulty...

Please do realize in any case, that I came home from SH last year claiming it as the best golf course on the planet, so this is no knock against SH and I continue to hold that position.  You're just picking the absolute strength of my #2 or #3 course on the planet, which is a tough argument.

TH

[SPDB]

Tom -

I'm sure you've also heard of the steeply pitched 3d, which Billy Casper laid up on four straight times.

The 7th (or is it the 8th, I forget) is short (relatively) at ~155, and is probably the easiest of the bunch, due to its green, but it can be tough if the pin is cut next to the right bunker.

The 10th needs no description.

The 13th green is sort of flatter version of 10 green, but still very difficult and long at 200+. Your reward for making 3 (or birdie or triple bogey)? 5 brutally long par 4s, easily the toughest finish to any course I know of.

The problem with all the par 3s is there is nowhere to miss on any of them, and over on each of them is total jail (if not stroke penalty).

they are terrifying.

[THuckaby2]

SPDB - thanks.  Oh yes, I remember #3, and now that you describe them the rest are coming back to me.  That is one terrifying set without a doubt.  Good call.

TH

[Mike Hendren]

...making a few pars on 16 CPC thrilled me far more than birdieing either 13 or 17 at SH, all of which I have done...

You and Gary, two great Players

Mike

[THuckaby2]

Ouch!  I usually go the other way with golf stories, using the soft sell.... just remember that I've been lucky to have quite a few tries to make those good scores, and in all my rounds at SH we had very little wind!

TH

[Ken_Cotner]

Sounds like a boatload of great choices.  Probably kind of like Sinatra vs. Mozart vs. Coltrane vs. Cash vs. Ramones.  Hard to say one is "best", but what "moves" you is what's important.  And that can vary a lot from person to person -- difficulty; options; setting; naturalness; variety.

KC

[THuckaby2]

Wow, well said Ken, excellent comparison.   And yeah, these are all great choices without a doubt.

I'm just trying to place which great musician would represent Cypress and which Sand Hills, to put your comparison on what Mike H. and I were bantering back and forth... Hmmm... CA coast v. majestic NE sand hills....  I kinda think of Sand Hills as Wagner - majestic, dramatic, fearsome... But then again, Wagner could represent 16 Cypress for sure... oh, I stink at this.  Never mind!  

TH

[HamiltonBHearst]

From Tom Doak's book:

Casa de campo
Merion
Rye
Harbour Town
Pine Valley
Crystal Downs
Yarra Yarra
Coombe Hill
Camargo
Sleepy Hollow
Prairie Dunes
St Andrews (eden)
Somerset Hills
Lahinch
Valley Club
Manufacturers
Stonewall

[Michael Dugger]

HBH....

Everyone has the Guide, be original.

What do you think??

[Michael Dugger]

I'll vote for Pac Dunes.

[HamiltonBHearst]

Sorry Mdugger. it was posted for conversation purposes.  I have only played one of the courses listed.

I nominate Sandpines. Maybe you can tell us more about it.
On second thought, I come to this site for honest analysis.

[Top100Guru]

Given that there are a multitude of potential candidates for best sets of Par 3's.....I would like to cast my vote for a set that I think are truly special. Let's at least call them a "mini-set".....because there are only actually three par 3's on this course. They would be the 253 Yard 3rd which plays over a cross-bunker to a smallish two-teered green, usually playing into the wind and often requiring a "feathered" driver into the hole.........

then comes the stylish 136 Yard 9th which plays to a green of merely 10-12 paces wide yet is close to 4 clubs deep, did I mention that it was completely surrounded by deep, knarly bunkers???

.......and finally the downhill (80-90 ft drop) 192 Yard 16th that plays over Shinnecock Style tall grass to a green that runs away from you and is guarded in the front by two bunkers and a 5 yard wide gap in which to hopefully land the ball and stop somewhere near the hole which is usually placed only a few paces from the front gap....

All of this to be had at the fabulous Myopia Hunt Club!!!

Cheers!!

[A_Clay_Man]

Can a "great" course have a bad set? or even mediocre?

All of the par three's seem a more important variable to fulfilling greatness.

How about, what's the weakest par 3 on the greatest course?

[TEPaul]

We were playing today at Manufacturers in Philadalphia and during the round we got to talking about William Flynn and par 3s. We all decided that Flynn was super strong on par 3s everywhere we could think of. None of us could think of a single Flynn par 3 that wasn't interesting.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

Funny, I was just thinking about Manufacturers and its five par threes.  Incredible variety and interest and clearly the high points of that course.

Also, some wonderful par threes at Philly Country Club.  The 5th is one of the most dangerous par threes I've seen for it's shortish length, and the 15th is just probably the greatest brutal uphill par three I'm familiar with short of PV's 5th.

[Mike Hendren]

None of us could think of a single Flynn par 3 that wasn't interesting.

Tom Paul,

While the Cascades is noted for its one-shot finishing hole, it's easily the weakest of the five short holes there, IMHO.  The 15th is fairly plain as well.  I'd say both lack interest.  The remaining three are quite good, however.  The deception of the 8th green is incredible and the 11th is one of my favorite short holes anywhere, particularly with the hidden back left pin placement, though it gets little notoriety.

Regards,

Mike

[Paul_Turner]

Colt is the indisputable king of the par 3, some of his best (played a lot, photos for some):

Swinley, all 5
Sunningdale New, all 5
St George's Hill, all 4
Portrush Dunluce, 6 and 14 (the other two ain't bad either)
Portrush Valley 18
Broadstone 11,15
Eden (all of his, not Steel's)
Pine Valley 5 and 10 (probably both his-to a large degree).
County Sligo 4,9
County Down 4
Meyrick Park 12
Sunningdale Old 8
Hoylake 11,13
Muirfield 4 13(his?)
Mannings Heath 7?
Camberley Heath 2
Burnham and Berrow 9,17
Belvoir Park 14
Royal Belfast 11
Wentworth W, 2
Wentworth E, all?
Trevose 3
Sickleholme 13

[TEPaul]

From the little I've seen of Colt I'd sure agree he had fascinating par 3s. One of my favorites anywhere is County Down's #7--it's so unusual, along the spine of a high ridge, a short par 3 battered by the wind and the green surface mostly blind. It's confusing to see the hole from the tee the first time but when you see the green it becomes obvious that it looks far more dangerous than it should be--obviously some real experience factor to it and for a short hole so exposed to the wind it requires in windy conditions that you keep the ball down with a short iron--a very interesting requirment!

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