[THuckaby2]

I commented elsewhere that Monterey Peninsula Dunes course just might have the best overall set of par three holes of any course near it, which obviously includes Cypress, Pebble, Spyglass, etc.  This deserves some fleshing out, and for those who haven't had the great fortune to play this wonderful course, well, make it happen!  It is described well by Ran in the Courses section on this site, but in brief, the par three holes are:

#4 - downhill 230 yards or so, with biarritz type green.  Set back in the forest, the wind swirls making this one darn tough green tough green to hit, and when one inevitably misses, the biarritz-type swale make for some very interesting chipping.  It also takes some skill to ace this hole, right Bob H.?  

#7 - app. 160 yards, but plays a lot longer and once again, the enormous trees cause the wind to swirl, making club selection very difficult.  Extremely well-bunkered green also, with fall-offs on all sides... and the green itself has subtle internal contours that continue to mystify me.

#10 - wow factor to the max.  Tee sits up on a sand dune, green is blow on another dune, set up with grass falling off to the left, hazard to the right.  Wind on this exposed point is diabolical, and this 150 yard shot can play anwyhere from 100 to 200, although most of the time you get a cross wind.  Views extend to Japan out over the bay... just an incredibly great golf hole.

#14 - what can you say, it was the cover-boy for the NCGA annual magazine a few years ago so it has even more wow factor.  Renovations pushed the green closer to the ocean, such that from the back tee, now set on a little perch amongs the rocks, it is a full 180 yard carry over perdition, to a green with more wonderful contour... Hitting from that perch, with all the tourists watching from behind a fence, is both terrifying and wonderful.  This hole now competes with 15 and 16 at Cypress, just up the road.

Put all those together, and you can see that the competition against Cypress is a good one... I'd have to say 15 and 16 Cypress do get the nod in beauty, and each are fantastic holes, so if one was to go head to head, well... maybe overall Cypress does still get the nod.  But each of the non-oceanside holes at MPCC Dunes are better than their non-oceanside cousins at Cypress, so this is a close race.

I'm trying to think of other courses with great sets of par threes that would defeat MPCC Dunes, but it ain't easy... NGLA has wonderful ones in the redan and the short but the Eden isn't any better than the worst par 3 at MPCC Dunes... Shinnecock's are usually the standard, but again I can argue for MPCC Dunes against these....

We likely have covered this before, so my apologies if so but I couldn't find such using the search feature.  What courses are said to have the best set of par threes?  I'd be interested in setting MPCC Dunes against them....

TH

[SPDB]

Camargo

#5 terrific eden, but with far more elevation than the orig.
#8 a compact little biarritz (when compared to others). also it has far more of a pushed up feel than its brethren.
#11 a short that is really really good.
#15 Redan. This redan really runs away from you. I find it among the most difficult to hold. Some have said it has a spine running diagonally through it, but i've never really noticed it (probably because, as I've said, its tough to hold, therefore I'm rarely on the green)

St. Louis CC definitely also deserves mention.

I also enjoy Yeamans collection, Fishers as well (although admittedly the short and redan are only marginal). NGLA would be here, too, but there are too few of them.

Can you tell I'm partial to Raynor replicas?

[Jim_H]

Tom--
I agree with you so there is little else to say.
Did you see any developments on the redo of the Shore Course at MPCC?  It looks like it may be spectacular, but until it is done, who knows.

[CHrisB]

Tom,
I haven't played MPCC Dunes, but how would its par 3s stack up against...

Prairie Dunes,
Merion, &
Casa de Campo (TOTD) ?

[THuckaby2]

redanman et al:  when I leave it is an event, as you know.    So hell yes my god-forbid BIAS for my home state does show, but I am trying to be honest here... the par threes at MPCC Dunes really are very good, each one of them, and all different... so I am asking for courses which would surpass them as a set.

And I am only asking... I am not familiar enough with any of Camargo, Merion, Prairie Dunes or Teeth of the Dog, but if those surpass MPCC-Dunes as an overall set, then they must be damn great, that's all!

JIm - I drove by the Shore a few weeks ago and it's really neat how the grass is growing in in places... the plan also makes for one hell of a fantastic golf course... but obviously Mr. Huntley is the source for anything beyond that.  I just can't wait for it to be done, can't wait to play it, so thank god it will need to have a new course rating and slope, so I don't have to beg Bob any more than I will likely do come opening time!  

TH

[Chris_Clouser]

Pine Valley.

[Scott_Burroughs]

An underrated set of 5 par-3's is at Rolling Green.

[THuckaby2]

Chris - I had posted a message questioning this... now I just went back over Ran's review and never mind, we have an unquestioned superior to MPCC Dunes.

Good call!

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

The Knoll has a great set.
I'll let George Bahto extoll their virtues.

Preakness Hills has a great set.

Chris B,
I disagree with Merion, three long par 3's and one short one.
All good holes, but three longs make it short on diversity.

[THuckaby2]

Patrick - I shall look these up, as I will all the other courses mentioned - thanks to one and all!  For some reason this is a very intriguing subject to me....

TH

[Chris_Clouser]

Tom H

If you want to talk about around the world.  Swinley Forest and Rye would be candidates as well.  Perhaps Hirono could be a consideration if you really look around the world.

[THuckaby2]

Those would all work for me, Chris - I trust you implicitly.  My main thing was that most people do cite Cypress for having a very strong set of par threes, and there is lil ole MPCC Dunes right next to it with maybe a better set.

TH

[David Wigler]

Tom,

I can think of four that IMO exceed MPCC.  You mentioned the first, Cypress Point.  None of them are weak and 15, 16 are so strong.  The next would be Praire Dunes.  The set of 3's that Maxwell built are truly amazing.  Next would be Shore Acres.  Awesome Short, Amazing Biarritz, Fantastic Redan, cool..cool..cool.  Last would be a hidden gem in Michigan called Plum Hollow that has one of the best sets of five par threes in the country.  Allison built his courses by giving the par 3's the premiere sites and then building the course around them.  The fantastic piece of property allowed him to build the best set he ever did.  No less an authority than Ben Hogan said that it had the best set of 3's on the planet.

[T_MacWood]

Plum Hollow sounds worth checking out. I'm not sure Hogan ever made it to Japan - but from what I've seen its hard to beat the par-3's at Hirono.

What about Royal Melbourne, Kingston Heath or Yarra Yarra? What about St.Georges Hill or the Addington?

[SPDB]

Tom Huckaby,

The Knoll has a great set.
I'll let George Bahto extoll their virtues.

Preakness Hills has a great set.

Chris B,
I disagree with Merion, three long par 3's and one short one.
All good holes, but three longs make it short on diversity.

Pat - does 175 and 193 really qualify as "long" (particularly when you consider the 193 is downhill?). Oddly enough 3 plays probably about 190, and 9 plays about 170.

With lengths of 125, 175, 193 and 227. Can you really classify Merion's set as "three long, 1 short" ?? For my money, that's plenty of variety in my book.

[Bob_Huntley]

David.

CP's three a strong candidate? Come on.

[THuckaby2]

Ok Dave, I believe ya re all the others.  But let's examine Cypress v. MPCC Dunes more closely.

At Cypress, obviously 15 and 16 are wonderful, so going strength for strength, they get the nod over 14 and 10 at MPCC Dunes, but not by as big a margin as most people would think... 10 and 14 at MPCC Dunes are two damn fine golf holes.

So then taking the "lesser" holes against each other... well... I'm gonna give the nod to MPCC Dunes there!  #4 is the best of the lot, and #7 need not bow to either #3 or #7 at CPC.

So if we look at it this way, it's pretty damn close!

I can live with giving the nod overall to CPC just because #16 is perhaps the greatest hole on the planet, my point is more that overall this is a tight race.

TH

[Mike Hendren]

Narrow it down to the best threes in nine holes and the back-nine at Sand Hills is untouchable.

Regards,

Mike

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

Hmmmm... back nine at SH v. back nine at Cypress?  You know I love SH, and those are two GREAT par 3's on that nine, but well... even I can't give the nod to Mullen there.

Make it the entire course and then, like MPCC Dunes, we have a battle, and for my money SH wins over Cypress on the overall.  I did like the two on the front nine there quite a lot also!

TH

[David Wigler]

Bob,

I was interpreting Tom's question as a sum of their parts.  I like #3 at CP.  #16 at CP is IMO the finest golf hole (Not just par 3 but hole) on the planet.  #15 is one of the best 3's on the planet.  Whne you add them all up and compare, I think that CP stands tall in the list of four that I mentioned as the Kings of the 3.

PS - Saw you old caddie a couple of weeks ago at Southern Highlands.  He said to make sure I said hello to you!

PPS - When are you coming to Michigan so I can show you Plum Hollow.  There are many drinks to be had while we disagree on whether MPCC or PHCC has better 3's.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

Yes,

# 3 plays uphill to a large front/back green,
I think it plays longer than 190 especially to a back pin and it's all carry, as is # 9, # 17 and # 13.

There is no ground game in those four par 3's, they're all aerial, requiring carry, three of them require long carries, hence, I think they lack the diversity found at The Knoll and Preakness Hills.

They're very good par 3's, but as a set, I don't think they offer the diversity of the others.  No ground game, and long carries on 3 out of 4.

But, that's just my opinion.

[SPDB]

Pat - point taken. I was basing my point on length primarily, it hadn't occurred to me that none of them possess ground entry. plus, if you're talking to Lee Trevino, Merion only has three par 3s, with 17 being the "toughest par 4 on the planet"

On a separate note, how about Riviera?

[David Wigler]

Huckster,

I just thought about this and I might have to add one more (Though I know I will be alone on this) PGA West Stadium.  Beyond that, I am comfortable with MPCC being a solid top 10 par three course.  Now isn't it ironic that Hogan found time to see PHCC but you cannot?

[David Wigler]

Tom M,

I doubt Hogan made it to Japan.  Hirino is on the short list of courses I dream about one day getting a chance to play.

[Paul_Turner]

Patrick

I agree that the Biarritz and Short are strong holes at The Knoll (particularly the Biarritz!).  But I think the Redan is weak (although the lump in the green is interesting) and The Eden is only so, so.

Obviously Rye and Swinley.  West Sussex has a great set.  Addington has 6, of which 5 are super and are a great mix.  I bet The Eden had a claim for the best, before it was butchered (although the remaining originals are still very appealing).

Sand Hills obviously has a great set.  My favourite there is the 6th.  Pine Valley also, but the weakest hole on the course, in my opinion, is the 14th.

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