Duke University Course Front Nine: RTJ’s most severe greens?

[James Brown]

I played the Duke University course last week and was struck by how severe the front nine greens were.  It’s been dry for a while in the mid-Atlantic and the greens were very firm and fast, but I found myself asking:


Is the front nine at Duke the most severe set of greens that RTJ ever built?


The back nine was much more tame and I was also told this course was his first design right after he got a chance to rework some of Augusta’s greens. 


I’ve only played maybe 10 RTJ courses, so curious of the views of CGA world?

[Matt_Cohn]

Duke's greens and bunkers were completely redone by Rees in 1993. They're not RTJ greens.

[A.G._Crockett]

Duke's greens and bunkers were completely redone by Rees in 1993. They're not RTJ greens.

Not only this, but Duke was a VERY early adopter of Champion Bermuda, and they did not recontour the greens at all.  Arguably, it might have been better if they had on at least some of the greens, which were bent grass at the time both of the Joneses worked on them.  #4, the first par 3, is a good example; if the greens are fast and the pin is on the front right, the hole borders on unplayable for many.
I live in Durham, and played Duke many times before and after Rees Jones worked on it, and before and after they regrassed the greens.  The Rees "redo", IMO, is one of the best I've ever seen.  But the Bermuda greens just aren't much fun; you just have to putt very, very defensively.  I only play there three or four times a year, and that's plenty for me.

I will say this, though.  Duke is a great example of the tension faced by a university course.  Should the course be for the entire university community, or should it provide a great test for the golf teams?  Those are VERY different goals, and it is a very difficult line to walk.

[Ira Fishman]

We have plenty Duke quite a few times (all since the renovation). I really like it through the first 12 holes and then it feels like a bit of a slog. 17 and 18 present a very difficult close,. The greens are quite challenging, but interesting contours that do not follow any particular pattern.


It is a good example from the forward tee thread about the need to pick the right tees.


Ira

[Joe_Tucholski]

I played Duke in a college club golf event.  It isn't sticking out in my head as a course with severe greens (really none of the 25 or so RTJ courses I've played stick out as having severe greens).


I currently play at the Air Force Academy, another RTJ college course, and have putted off at least a half dozen of the greens.  I rarely finish a round with less than two 3 putts.  That being said I don't really think of the greens as severe, just a mountain course where you really want to be below the hole.


I think of severe greens as those that have lots of humps, bumps and hollows.  Are you equating severe greens to those with slopes that make stopping a downhill putt challenging?

[James Brown]

Duke's greens and bunkers were completely redone by Rees in 1993. They're not RTJ greens.

That explains a lot for me.  I heard they were planning a restoration in the next couple of years, presumably back to the RTJ greens?

[James Brown]

Duke's greens and bunkers were completely redone by Rees in 1993. They're not RTJ greens.

Not only this, but Duke was a VERY early adopter of Champion Bermuda, and they did not recontour the greens at all.  Arguably, it might have been better if they had on at least some of the greens, which were bent grass at the time both of the Joneses worked on them.  #4, the first par 3, is a good example; if the greens are fast and the pin is on the front right, the hole borders on unplayable for many.
I live in Durham, and played Duke many times before and after Rees Jones worked on it, and before and after they regrassed the greens.  The Rees "redo", IMO, is one of the best I've ever seen.  But the Bermuda greens just aren't much fun; you just have to putt very, very defensively.  I only play there three or four times a year, and that's plenty for me.

I will say this, though.  Duke is a great example of the tension faced by a university course.  Should the course be for the entire university community, or should it provide a great test for the golf teams?  Those are VERY different goals, and it is a very difficult line to walk.

Very helpful info.  I thought the greens were very nearly too fast to be playable on 2-3 holes on the front nine, specifically 4 and 7 and maybe 5 too.  But this was in super dry fast conditions like people putting off the green on 4 and paying ping pong on 7 from bunkers after good shots that just didn’t stop. 


And 7-8-9 struck me as overly harsh green complexes with a super high degree of slope.


The fact that they are Rees Jones greens makes sense to me as they are deliberately designed to be super difficult, rather than simply interestingly and more natural.  I don’t mean that as a slight because Rees in 1993 was all about difficulty as an objective.

[A.G._Crockett]

The upcoming work at Duke will NOT be a return to the original RTJ course.  They’ll close in February to renovate bunkers, greens, and cart paths, and also to add yardage on some holes.  I think the goal is to make the course a better test for high level college golf.  I’d also be surprised if they didn’t at least attempt to improve some pretty severe drainage issues.


I haven’t heard who will be the GCA on this work.  Rees Jones supervised the conversion to Champion Bermuda in 2013, and I think they took the greens back to his father’s original size at that point.  I’m only guessing, but I’d sort of expect more contour and less slope if changes are made to the greens.


I’ll be sure to post details when/if I hear them.

[Peter Sayegh]

A.G. or others,
Do you know if the course is closed? Heading up there soon and the website and pro shop seem non-responsive.Thanks.

[A.G._Crockett]

No, Duke is still open.  I believe they close in February for the project. 


When you have a $13 billion endowment, you can afford to be non-responsive to potential customers.  Keep trying.

[Peter Sayegh]

No, Duke is still open.
When you have a $13 billion endowment, you can afford to be non-responsive to potential customers.  Keep trying.

(Spit take).
Thought it was just another southern thing.
Thanks A.G.

[A.G._Crockett]

No, Duke is still open.
When you have a $13 billion endowment, you can afford to be non-responsive to potential customers.  Keep trying.

(Spit take).
Thought it was just another southern thing.
Thanks A.G.

Whatever Duke is or isn’t, they ain’t a southern thing.

[A.G._Crockett]

A.G. or others,
Do you know if the course is closed? Heading up there soon and the website and pro shop seem non-responsive.Thanks.

Depending on what you mean by "soon"...

I went to the range at Duke this morning (my club was closed today after being open both Monday and Tuesday for the holiday), and I think Duke WILL be closed a few days over the next couple of weeks for greens and then fairway aerification.  You'll have to get the schedule from the pro shop; the website and their Facebook page aren't especially helpful, as you've already found out.

[Peter Sayegh]

Thanks again A.G.
Is The Preserve at Jordan Lake worth it?
Just visiting for Wrexham/CHE.

[A.G._Crockett]

Thanks again A.G.
Is The Preserve at Jordan Lake worth it?
Just visiting for Wrexham/CHE.

I don’t think you would be likely to enjoy the conditions at The Preserve.  Duke, even just after aerating, would still be a bet choice.  Another option to consider is Mill Creek in Mebane, which is a hidden gem.  Good condition, good price, and an easy drive from the Triangle.  I’m not a big fan of Lonnie Poole at NC State, but it’s also in great condition and affordable.


I’ll be in GA that week for the Member-Guest at my old club, but let me know if I can be of any other help. 

[Rich Milligan]

Robert Trent Jones built several difficult greens at Chanticleer (Greenville, SC). Most notably, the eighth hole is a dogleg left with a severely sloping green.

The picture below was probably taken 25-30 years ago prior to Rees Jones' renovation.





A more recent picture of #8. (Rees Jones appears to have made minimal changes to the green after a renovation in 2001)