forward sets of tees

[Tommy Williamsen]

At 76, I look for yardages that give me a reasonable chance to hit the green in two shots. I have noticed that most new courses have a set of tees that come in around 6000 - 6100 yards. Generally, that is a reasonable distance for me. When there were only three sets of tees on older courses, the second set of tees typically came out to about 6400 yards, depending on how long the back tees were. The most forward tees are beginning to come in at under 5000 yards. Earlier courses had the forward (women's tees) at longer than that.


So is this done on purpose? It seems there is more thought in siting more forward tees. On the old runway tees, the super could determine the length of each hole. Now the architect determines the length.

[Bernie Bell]

The runways gave courses what Ed Ault is quoted as calling "diversibility," though I'm not sure that word plays in Scrabble.  Runways and large greens give a wider range of options depending on where tees and pins are set. 

[Tim Martin]

So is this done on purpose? It seems there is more thought in siting more forward tees. On the old runway tees, the super could determine the length of each hole. Now the architect determines the length.

The superintendent would still have the ability to determine the length. Look at the number of hybrid tees that are now available for purposes of not only playing a desired yardage but also being able to post a score for same.

[Carl Johnson]

" . . . So is this done on purpose? It seems there is more thought in siting more forward tees."
[/size][/color]
[/size]It seems to me that there should be a lot thought given to the location of tees, both the standpoint of length and features of the hole (which would include consideration of angles).  I am talking about all tees here, not just the forward ones.  Off hand, it also seems to me that, as you (TW) say, more such thought is being given these days, which I deem to be a good thing.[/color]

[Charlie Goerges]

I know what you're saying Tim, but if the course is rated from different tees, do they really tend to move the markers terribly far from the location it was rated from? That said, I don't put too much thought into it really.


I'm with you Tommy, I like playing from 6000 or so because it gives me a good chance of breaking 80 now that I'm only playing a couple times a year, and I'm 44! The kids are almost grown, maybe I'll get start getting out more often and move back for a few years before moving back up permanently.

[Thomas Dai]

Forward tees, yippee, given average amateur handicaps more folks should be playing from further forward. And with a decent spec rolled-back ball lots of others could too.
Atb

[Tommy Williamsen]

So is this done on purpose? It seems there is more thought in siting more forward tees. On the old runway tees, the super could determine the length of each hole. Now the architect determines the length.

The superintendent would still have the ability to determine the length. Look at the number of hybrid tees that are now available for purposes of not only playing a desired yardage but also being able to post a score for same.

There is some truth to that. When I played number 4 at Pacific Dunes last year, I was surprised that I had an iron in on the 449-yard par four. I should not have said anything. My caddie told me we played it at 410 yards. Nuts.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

At my club in the desert, a 55+ residential community with 3 courses, too many men refuse to move to the forward red tees from the white tees. Consequently, we have mixed red/white tees as follows:
West Course: White @5585y, Red/White @ 5195y, Red @4890y  Rating/Slope for White 66.3/112

East Course:  White@ 5453y, Red/White@5153y, Red @4688y   Rating/Slope for White 64.8/102

Eagles Nest: White@ 5725y, Red/White@ 5115y,  Red@4925y  Rating/Slope for White 67.0/110
 

[Ken Moum]

Forward tees, yippee, given average amateur handicaps more folks should be playing from further forward. And with a decent spec rolled-back ball lots of others could too.
Atb

The "Play it Forward " initiative has a great chart to help people pick tees. Hitting it 175 yards means 4800 is recommended.


At age 75, that's how far I hit it, so I moved to the red tees and I'm very happy there. Some of my friends give me a hard time but some of them are playing too far back.

[Steve Lang]

   At 71, I've done my time at the Black and Blue and White tees ( I was let off on good behavior), now at the Gold (Sr.) and have played often with Ms Sheila from the Green (forward) at our courses, and I always recommend folks move up for more fun, and seen many big hitters that can't shoot par or come close for 18 from the forward tees.


Not to say I won't go to the tips on occasion for a good view or quick reminder of distance lost over time...  or is it trying to get my money's worth at some bucket list course when playing out??  In any case, let's pin it somewhere and play, no strokes given or taken!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Senior men do hate to play from the red markers and some clubs put both red and white on the forward most tees to accomodate them.  Overall, however, I think male ego is slowly fading, as more men are willing to play under 6K, whereas my father had to play over 6K, no matter how old and short he had become, so that's a good thing.


Architecturally, whether the ASGCA LongLeaf program, Tee it Forward, and others, the trend is to shorter courses from the two most forward tees.  The movement is not new, and is slowly gaining acceptance.  I was quoted in the Wall Street Journal in 2008 regarding the need to rethink basic tee placements.


The math is pretty simple.  Starting with the idea that all players should be able to hit greens with two good shots, and maybe even play similar clubs, if tour pros average 300 yards and play 7500 yard courses (that is a bit high for the PGA Tour average, but I like to round shamelessly....) then the 150 yard forward tee players ought to be playing at 3,750 to hit similar clubs.  The max they can play and hit most greens is about 5,000 (150+130 3Wood) X 18) and anywhere under that allows them to hit most greens with something other than max length, with many courses about splitting the difference somewhere over 4,000 (women have golf egos, too)


Senior men at 180/300 yards need 60% of course length to play the same clubs, i.e., 60% of 7500 is 4,500 yards, and a max length of about 6,120, with anything in between being comfortable, or at least more comfortable.  I found that senior men, when doing internet research about new courses to play actually actively look for a tee set at 5,500 to 5,700 yards, but they really should play at just over 5,000, again, as a concession to ego and going under the 5K mark.


All that said, and because I was an early convert, I am still surprised at how many architects still design tees that make courses "too long" at least IMHO. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

Jeff, I understand your Dad. If I shoot a good score at a course under 6000 yards, it doesn’t count.

[Ken Moum]

Jeff, I understand your Dad. If I shoot a good score at a course under 6000 yards, it doesn’t count.

There are still 18 holes that need to be filled.


If your average driving distance is still over 225, then 6,000 is perfectly reasonable.


Mine is down to 170, and that mean most 6,000-yard courses have about nine par fives. No thanks.

[Sean_A]

I convinced Spangles to play a sub 6000 yard set of tees on our last go at Deal. My, the course was far more enjoyable,especially given the steady 20mph contrary wind. There were 2 or 3 holes where the forward walk was silly, but generally the set worked well. One of the more impressive holes was playing 16 as hole that could be reached in two. Very cool.


Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Jeff, I understand your Dad. If I shoot a good score at a course under 6000 yards, it doesn’t count.

There are still 18 holes that need to be filled.
If your average driving distance is still over 225, then 6,000 is perfectly reasonable.
Mine is down to 170, and that mean most 6,000-yard courses have about nine par fives. No thanks.

Well said Ken.
And Jeff too for this above “I found that senior men, when doing internet research about new courses to play actually actively look for a tee set at 5,500 to 5,700 yards, but they really should play at just over 5,000, again, as a concession to ego and going under the 5K mark.”
It’s supposed to be fun.
Atb

[Ken Moum]

Jeff, I understand your Dad. If I shoot a good score at a course under 6000 yards, it doesn’t count.

There are still 18 holes that need to be filled.
If your average driving distance is still over 225, then 6,000 is perfectly reasonable.
Mine is down to 170, and that mean most 6,000-yard courses have about nine par fives. No thanks.

Well said Ken.
And Jeff too for this above “I found that senior men, when doing internet research about new courses to play actually actively look for a tee set at 5,500 to 5,700 yards, but they really should play at just over 5,000, again, as a concession to ego and going under the 5K mark.”
It’s supposed to be fun.
Atb

Re. the under 5K issue, the Tee it Forward chart recommends 4800 yards for me, and that's what the red tees are at my home course. Been playing them exclusively since early March and went from shooting mid- to high-90s down to down to mid 80s and even one 79. Now, I am, and always have been, VERY sensitive to yardage because my game gets better the closer I am to the hole. Even when I was a single digit handicap, I was probably no better than a 15 on tee shots and approach shots. But I averaged under 30 putts.


One thing I find amusing is how often resort and daily fee courses set up the "white" tees on the wrong teeing area.  It's not uncommon in my experience to see them play 3-400 yards shorter than the card. Makes for happy customers I would imagine.

[Tom_Doak]

We are wrestling right now with what sets of tees to list for Sedge Valley.


We have generally agreed on the idea of putting out two daily tee markers [long and short], plus plaques for the tips and for the most-forward tees [the light blue tees they have included on all the Dream Golf courses].  But we are hoping to get away with one set of markers for most men, and a second set for senior men and women.


The reason we are wrestling with it is because we believe people will look at the total yardage and not make the accounting adjustment for the fact that it's a par-68.  The "tips" are only 6100 yards, but my guess is those will compare to something more like 6700 yards, and that most visitors should not go that far back.  But if we put the daily "long" tees at 5700 yards, will guys move back because that's too short?  Even at 5700 I suspect it will be harder than the tees Tommy W. normally plays as described in his opening post.


When we were working on PGA West, Mr. Dye quipped one day that the only way to get average golfers to play from a yardage comparable to the pros was to put their tees at 5800 yards, but lie on the scorecard and call it 6200 yards, otherwise they wouldn't play those tees.  I think Sedge Valley is going to be just like that.

[Tim Martin]

Jeff, I understand your Dad. If I shoot a good score at a course under 6000 yards, it doesn’t count.

There are still 18 holes that need to be filled.
If your average driving distance is still over 225, then 6,000 is perfectly reasonable.
Mine is down to 170, and that mean most 6,000-yard courses have about nine par fives. No thanks.

Well said Ken.
And Jeff too for this above “I found that senior men, when doing internet research about new courses to play actually actively look for a tee set at 5,500 to 5,700 yards, but they really should play at just over 5,000, again, as a concession to ego and going under the 5K mark.”
It’s supposed to be fun.
Atb

One thing I find amusing is how often resort and daily fee courses set up the "white" tees on the wrong teeing area.  It's not uncommon in my experience to see them play 3-400 yards shorter than the card. Makes for happy customers I would imagine.

Ken-I’ve seen the same and I think you’re correct in that it’s a way to keep the public coming back. I don’t recall thinking that the playing yardage was considerably less than stated on the scorecard at a private course.

[Garland Bayley]

Dang you are aging fast. You lost 5 yards in 2 days

Jeff, I understand your Dad. If I shoot a good score at a course under 6000 yards, it doesn’t count.

There are still 18 holes that need to be filled.


If your average driving distance is still over 225, then 6,000 is perfectly reasonable.


Mine is down to 170, and that mean most 6,000-yard courses have about nine par fives. No thanks.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ken,


"One thing I find amusing is how often resort and daily fee courses set up the "white" tees on the wrong teeing area.  It's not uncommon in my experience to see them play 3-400 yards shorter than the card. Makes for happy customers I would imagine."


One of those "things most folks don't think about in design" things, but I was in the habit of designing the larger mid tees to be wider/bigger in the front than the back, knowing that the super would put the tees towards the front every weekend to keep play moving, and those areas would get more wear.  Generally, not always, a tee that got narrower in the front always looked a bit awkward to me anyway, although there are a few exceptions that I really liked.

[Ira Fishman]

I don't know about you, but my three wood from the fairway keeps getting better as I get older and hit it more. I cannot seem to move up tees fast enough.

[Matt Schoolfield]

We are wrestling right now with what sets of tees to list for Sedge Valley.


We have generally agreed on the idea of putting out two daily tee markers [long and short], plus plaques for the tips and for the most-forward tees [the light blue tees they have included on all the Dream Golf courses].  But we are hoping to get away with one set of markers for most men, and a second set for senior men and women.


The reason we are wrestling with it is because we believe people will look at the total yardage and not make the accounting adjustment for the fact that it's a par-68.  The "tips" are only 6100 yards, but my guess is those will compare to something more like 6700 yards, and that most visitors should not go that far back.  But if we put the daily "long" tees at 5700 yards, will guys move back because that's too short?  Even at 5700 I suspect it will be harder than the tees Tommy W. normally plays as described in his opening post.


When we were working on PGA West, Mr. Dye quipped one day that the only way to get average golfers to play from a yardage comparable to the pros was to put their tees at 5800 yards, but lie on the scorecard and call it 6200 yards, otherwise they wouldn't play those tees.  I think Sedge Valley is going to be just like that.

1: I’ve caught at least one course doing this when adding it to the wiki. I reached out about the error, but they never responded to me. It’s one of the reasons the wiki doesn’t automatically calculate things like total distance. I realized pretty early on that a non-negligible number of courses have errors built in, and that I need to represent them that way.


2: When I went to Pasatiempo the starter noted the shorter distances and referenced the elevation with a “plays like” distance. Perhaps that’s a number that could be added, like a heat-index or wind-chill number. Honestly the GCA community coming up with a standard length-to-par or length-to-hazard adjustment would probably be helpful to the golf community in the long run.

[A.G._Crockett]

Just for reference, below are the allowable yardage parameters by the Carolinas Golf Association for senior (55+) and Super Senior (65+) interclub matches and tournament play.  (If there is a state association that does a better job than the CGA at keeping old guys on the golf course and competing, then that association is doing a helluva job!)
55+, par 72, 5400-6400 yards65+, par 72, 5000-5800 yards
There are adjustments to this if the course isn't par 72, but you get the idea.  FWIW, the CGA also has a four ball tournament series throughout the year in which teams pick their desired yardage, rather than having the tees be age-based.  This was done in an effort to get more high handicappers playing, and there is also a mixed division from the short tees.

[Ken Moum]

Dang you are aging fast. You lost 5 yards in 2 days

Jeff, I understand your Dad. If I shoot a good score at a course under 6000 yards, it doesn’t count.

There are still 18 holes that need to be filled.


If your average driving distance is still over 225, then 6,000 is perfectly reasonable.


Mine is down to 170, and that mean most 6,000-yard courses have about nine par fives. No thanks.

Well, I did break my left wrist a week ago. Yardage down to 120-25 playing with one hand.

[Ira Fishman]

I would be curious if there is any reliable data on the degree to which there is a higher percentage of golfers who playing well into their 70s or beyond than there were even a generation ago. I suspect of course yes. The widening age range definitely would increase the challenge for architects and superintendents to keep courses relevant for all. And I do not mean for the elite, younger player. Younger golfers just simply have more distance given equipment, nutrition, and exercise.