[Tom_Doak]

“But at the same time, I think it's weird that twenty-two years later, that is all now the fault of the Saudis.  No President has ever even suggested such a thing.  We have looked the other way, with laser focus.”


Tom, not so. Look it up.

There have been suggestions, but to date I have yet to see definitive proof the Saudi "government" was responsible. If you have such evidence, please forward it to me. For personal reasons I would like this question definitely settled.

Ciao

Maybe…..more than a suggestion


https://www.npr.org/2021/09/12/1036389448/biden-declassifies-secret-fbi-report-detailing-saudi-nationals-connections-to-9-

Did President Biden give a speech on the topic, or even answer a single question about it at a press conference?


Have we suspended diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia?  Are we treating them any differently?  If we really believe they are responsible, anything less is just the same sort of performative bullcrap that is now the official substitute for actually doing something in this day and age.


Giving him credit for declassifying the intel report [after 20 years] is a very, very low bar.  Then again, I can't imagine he could high jump very highly at his age.

[Tim_Cronin]

Again, what has Brandel done to warrant resignation since this was announced?
No one even knows what the deal entails. (a "framework" agreement-what a bullshit way to say nothing other than we've lost and made a decision for you)
If he is asked to glorify the Saudi regime or comment positively on the golf events and sponsors, perhaps then he would out of protest.
He works for The Golf Channel, not the PGA Tour or the new entity-at least for the moment.

I don't know if I can explain it more clearly than last time, but I'll try. And I'll concede that I don't know the details of the deal, obviously, or when it will be finalized.


Brandel (and others) have stated that anyone involved with the Saudis is taking blood money. So now the PGA Tour and DP World Tour are taking blood money. Golf Channel has a deal to televise these, so they are now involved with the Saudis. GC pays Brandel (and others). I will also concede that the relationship is not as direct as the LIV golfers and admin. But it's hard for me to see Brandel as independent of the Saudis, even if he continues to criticise them. The company he works for will have direct business relationships with them. As direct as the golfers? No, but I'm not the one calling any of this blood money, the many vocal critics at GC are the ones who have characterized it this way.


I will lastly point out that in my initial post, I did not call out Brandel personally, I spoke more generally, as my recollection is that virtually all of GC's pundits - heck, many PGA players, too - went after Phil, Greg N, etc., very hard as acting immorally. It's hard for me to imagine any of them being involved in this facet of pro golf going forward.

No. If he's involved, so is anyone whose cable provider is Comcast, which owns NBCUniversal, which owns NBC Sports Group, which owns Golf Channel, which televises some PGA Tour tournaments, which will be overseen by a new company invested in and chaired by a Saudi.


No. Doesn't work that way.

[Tom_Doak]

If you were the PGA TOUR, why would you risk your entire existence in legal discovery?

If you are a golfer trying to reach the pinnacle of the game by qualifying for the US Open, why DQ yourself for fixing an aeration hole that nobody saw?

Call me naive, but I have always seen golf as being different from all other sports because it put integrity above winning.

I would rather see the PGA run itself into bankrupt nonexistence in an impossible fight against infinite Saudi wealth than make the “smart business decision” and capitulate. I hope the players revolt.

Dan:


Okay, then I will call you naive.  Which is okay -- you probably haven't hung around the power circles of golf very much.


I've been around them but I tend to keep my distance.  A lot of the big players in the sport seem to be in it for themselves, judging by their actions, which they try to paper over by suggesting they are doing it "for the good of the game".  My experience is that the people who are doing things for the good of the game never have to say so, and don't get paid much to do it. 


That's why I have had a more neutral take on the LIV thing from the beginning . . . because the people who run the PGA TOUR are every bit as motivated by $$$$ as the founders of LIV, except even more entitled in their posturing. So it's nice to see them finally revealed as such.


By the same token, talking tough about international relations on TV and claiming the moral high ground is utterly meaningless.  For anybody on TV getting paid big bucks to appoint themselves as the conscience of golf is laughable.


But, all of it generally confirms what people from other countries think about Americans and their attitude toward the rest of the world.

[Craig Sweet]

"I have no problem with those who disagree, this is a discussion site, after all):

[/size]Golf Central is a discussion site...[/color]

[John Kavanaugh]

We shoot our own children while they attend school. Let’s stop judging people we don’t even know because the media tells us so.

[David Kelly]

The bottom line is that when someone comes into a situation throwing around BILLIONS of dollars, a lot of people are going to do whatever it takes to get some of that money. 

[Anthony Butler]

Did President Biden give a speech on the topic, or even answer a single question about it at a press conference?


Have we suspended diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia?  Are we treating them any differently?  If we really believe they are responsible, anything less is just the same sort of performative bullcrap that is now the official substitute for actually doing something in this day and age.


Giving him credit for declassifying the intel report [after 20 years] is a very, very low bar.  Then again, I can't imagine he could high jump very highly at his age.

Ageism used to be ‘Don’t trust anyone over 30’. Now it’s 60+ year olds giving 80+ year olds shit because they're not quite as nimble as they used to be. 

My wife's grandmother is turning 100 in 6 months time and she's still the smartest person in our family, so given the demands of the job perhaps we should judge Biden on his mental rather than his physical agility.

I do agree that it's very hard to draw a line on when entanglement with a despotic regime becomes morally unacceptable. From the US Govt. standpoint it's very much the 'enemy of my enemy is my friend'. The Saudis have signaled for many years they will be our partner in keeping a lid on things in the Middle East, although on the surface they haven't delivered much other than real estate to house US military capabilities.

While we can't hold MBS accountable for 9/11 since he was a teenager at the time, I still remember the only commercial flight that got government permission to take off from the Boston area in the days after 9/11 was a flight flying members of the Bin-Laden family and other minor Saudi royalty studying at Boston University and BC back to Riyadh...

[Ben Sims]

The most interesting analysis has been from the business insiders/experts that have taken days to respond rather the golf people that took minutes or hours. There are a significant number of articles from people that study this sort of thing opining that the “merger” portion of this has a snowballs chance of coming to fruition. I tend to agree.


What’s more likely is the DoJ still pursues the anti-trust piece of this and the PIF and PGA withdraw the “merger”, LIV dies, and the PGA gets an investor. I don’t see how either entity can risk discovery.

[Jon McSweeny]

The most interesting analysis has been from the business insiders/experts that have taken days to respond rather the golf people that took minutes or hours. There are a significant number of articles from people that study this sort of thing opining that the “merger” portion of this has a snowballs chance of coming to fruition. I tend to agree.


What’s more likely is the DoJ still pursues the anti-trust piece of this and the PIF and PGA withdraw the “merger”, LIV dies, and the PGA gets an investor. I don’t see how either entity can risk discovery.

Can you provide a link or links to any of this analysis?

[George Pazin]

No. If he's involved, so is anyone whose cable provider is Comcast, which owns NBCUniversal, which owns NBC Sports Group, which owns Golf Channel, which televises some PGA Tour tournaments, which will be overseen by a new company invested in and chaired by a Saudi.


No. Doesn't work that way.

A fair take.


Quick question: Why would Brandel or the other critics even want to work commenting on a pro sports league they hold in such contempt?

[Mike Wagner]

From today's NYT:
One of the few people who accurately predicted the outcome of this saga was Donald Trump, who remains close to Saudi officials and whose clubs hosted several LIV events.

“All of those golfers that remain ‘loyal’ to the very disloyal PGA,” Trump wrote in an online post last summer, “will pay a big price when the inevitable merger with LIV comes, and you get nothing but a big ‘thank you’ from PGA officials.” Now Trump stands to benefit from the merger. The PGA Tour suddenly seems more likely to hold events at his courses.

Surprise, the Antichrist got it right. Now he can watch it from his prison cell.

I'm curious with all your anti-Trump posts ... how do you feel about the current president that has a very difficult time actually completing a sentence, a thought, or keeping his balance, and has taken money from our enemies for himself and his family?

Can we keep the Newsmax talking points off this thread?


Joe Biden might be old AF but he still got the better of Kevin McCarthy in the debt negotiations.. I guess it all depends with what IQ you started out with...

The reason Trump 'got it right' is that he always presumes that people are similarly motived as him - by pure greed. In this case, Monahan, the investment banker whose headquarters were destroyed in 9/11 and the Saudi's law firm representative on the Tour Board went for the $$$ and hope everyone else does the same.

I always get a laugh at this kind of thing. Yeah, only bad people are motivated by their self interests ... or the big bad "greed." We're all motivated by our self interests .. and hopefully if we're fairly grounded, we can have self interest in serving others as well. Kind of what makes society and the economy work. I'm sure you didn't accept a job for less than you're worth, correct? Maybe you have, I don't know, but I'm guessing if you did, you haven't done it twice


As far as the shot at being "newsmax" - facts are just facts .. they might suck for you, but if you don't think his family is a mob, I don't know what to tell ya .. maybe the sky isn't blue ..

[ChipRoyce]

(snip - realized throwing molotov cocktails just isn't fun anymore - at least here).

Is there a more private place where Jaka B and others hang out for a more civilized/uncivilized conversation?

[Ben Sims]

The most interesting analysis has been from the business insiders/experts that have taken days to respond rather the golf people that took minutes or hours. There are a significant number of articles from people that study this sort of thing opining that the “merger” portion of this has a snowballs chance of coming to fruition. I tend to agree.


What’s more likely is the DoJ still pursues the anti-trust piece of this and the PIF and PGA withdraw the “merger”, LIV dies, and the PGA gets an investor. I don’t see how either entity can risk discovery.

Can you provide a link or links to any of this analysis?

https://www.thebignewsletter.com/p/the-saudi-pga-golf-deal-isnt-going?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

[Anthony Butler]

From today's NYT:
One of the few people who accurately predicted the outcome of this saga was Donald Trump, who remains close to Saudi officials and whose clubs hosted several LIV events.

“All of those golfers that remain ‘loyal’ to the very disloyal PGA,” Trump wrote in an online post last summer, “will pay a big price when the inevitable merger with LIV comes, and you get nothing but a big ‘thank you’ from PGA officials.” Now Trump stands to benefit from the merger. The PGA Tour suddenly seems more likely to hold events at his courses.

Surprise, the Antichrist got it right. Now he can watch it from his prison cell.

I'm curious with all your anti-Trump posts ... how do you feel about the current president that has a very difficult time actually completing a sentence, a thought, or keeping his balance, and has taken money from our enemies for himself and his family?

Can we keep the Newsmax talking points off this thread?


Joe Biden might be old AF but he still got the better of Kevin McCarthy in the debt negotiations.. I guess it all depends with what IQ you started out with...

The reason Trump 'got it right' is that he always presumes that people are similarly motived as him - by pure greed. In this case, Monahan, the investment banker whose headquarters were destroyed in 9/11 and the Saudi's law firm representative on the Tour Board went for the $$$ and hope everyone else does the same.

I always get a laugh at this kind of thing. Yeah, only bad people are motivated by their self interests ... or the big bad "greed." We're all motivated by our self interests .. and hopefully if we're fairly grounded, we can have self interest in serving others as well. Kind of what makes society and the economy work. I'm sure you didn't accept a job for less than you're worth, correct? Maybe you have, I don't know, but I'm guessing if you did, you haven't done it twice


As far as the shot at being "newsmax" - facts are just facts .. they might suck for you, but if you don't think his family is a mob, I don't know what to tell ya .. maybe the sky isn't blue ..

OK… calm down there Tara Reade…


The ‘facts’ as you describe them are actually thus… There was a ‘whistleblower’ complaint on Biden registered with the Dept. Of Justice. This was investigated by the FBI. As a result of that investigation no further action is being taken. As far as the FBI was concerned it was a nothing-burger. Some Republican Congress-critter decided to make name for himself by demanding access to this investigation. Christopher Wray (Trump appointed director of the FBI) correctly decided that he wouldn’t turn over those documents for the Republicans to use as political capital. When they threatened to hold him in contempt he took a couple of them into a secure room and allowed them to read the investigation summary. They left saying nothing because they - for once - decided not to make even bigger fools of themselves.


Those are the facts Tara… if that doesn’t convince you I suggest you move to Russia or Saudi Arabia and find some ‘alternative’ facts.

[jeffwarne]

No. If he's involved, so is anyone whose cable provider is Comcast, which owns NBCUniversal, which owns NBC Sports Group, which owns Golf Channel, which televises some PGA Tour tournaments, which will be overseen by a new company invested in and chaired by a Saudi.


No. Doesn't work that way.

A fair take.


Quick question: Why would Brandel or the other critics even want to work commenting on a pro sports league they hold in such contempt?

Because he hopes a better alternative emerges, and he's holding out hope that a Saudi run investment company doesn't end up controlling pro golf?
It just happened, and nothing has really happened other than a lot of Monahan double speak "framework", "empirical", even called himself a hypocrite.
What if Brandel resigns in disgust as you suggest, then the deal never happens for anti-trust reasons, or the players and Board reject it?
Wouldn't resigning be premature?


I'm guessing Brandel wouldn't have a choice if The Saudis take over pro golf, but if they did and didn't fire him , he probably would resign.
But I'd say it would be prudent for him to see how all this pans out.

[George Pazin]

All fair, well made points, Jeff. I'll simply point out that I did say in one of my posts that I'm assuming the deal goes through and the timing is stipulated. At least I think I did, I'm getting old...if I didn't say that, that's my mistake and an obvious error. I completely understand a wait and see strategy.

[Tim Leahy]

From today's NYT:
One of the few people who accurately predicted the outcome of this saga was Donald Trump, who remains close to Saudi officials and whose clubs hosted several LIV events.

“All of those golfers that remain ‘loyal’ to the very disloyal PGA,” Trump wrote in an online post last summer, “will pay a big price when the inevitable merger with LIV comes, and you get nothing but a big ‘thank you’ from PGA officials.” Now Trump stands to benefit from the merger. The PGA Tour suddenly seems more likely to hold events at his courses.

Surprise, the Antichrist got it right. Now he can watch it from his prison cell.

I'm curious with all your anti-Trump posts ... how do you feel about the current president that has a very difficult time actually completing a sentence, a thought, or keeping his balance, and has taken money from our enemies for himself and his family?

PM me if you want to debate politics or watch a week of MSNBC or CNN for the truth and not what FOX Noise tells you. President Biden is a decent man and you can't say that about the traitor Comrade Trumpsky. There is a reason the PGA Tour banned tournaments on his courses. At least for now.

[Wayne_Kozun]

While I don't really care about Brandel Chamblee one way or another, I'm not sure I follow your logic here. The Golf Channel isn't owned by the PGA Tour.

The PGA Tour could say something like - unless you get rid of Brandel we are going to make your life difficult.  Sure you still have several years left on your contract with us, but we will strictly follow the letter of the law on the contract and cut back access to players, facilities, etc, unless it is specifically allowed in the contract.  And when the contract is up there is zero chance that we will renew it with you.  And we will put pressure on Comcast, your corporate owner, as well.

Yep. No Tour no Golf Channel.

Ciao

But with the move to streaming, when the Golf Channel's contract is up in 2030 then everything may be on PGA Tour Live or whatever web streaming service they have at the time.

[Mike Wagner]

From today's NYT:
One of the few people who accurately predicted the outcome of this saga was Donald Trump, who remains close to Saudi officials and whose clubs hosted several LIV events.

“All of those golfers that remain ‘loyal’ to the very disloyal PGA,” Trump wrote in an online post last summer, “will pay a big price when the inevitable merger with LIV comes, and you get nothing but a big ‘thank you’ from PGA officials.” Now Trump stands to benefit from the merger. The PGA Tour suddenly seems more likely to hold events at his courses.

Surprise, the Antichrist got it right. Now he can watch it from his prison cell.

I'm curious with all your anti-Trump posts ... how do you feel about the current president that has a very difficult time actually completing a sentence, a thought, or keeping his balance, and has taken money from our enemies for himself and his family?

Can we keep the Newsmax talking points off this thread?


Joe Biden might be old AF but he still got the better of Kevin McCarthy in the debt negotiations.. I guess it all depends with what IQ you started out with...

The reason Trump 'got it right' is that he always presumes that people are similarly motived as him - by pure greed. In this case, Monahan, the investment banker whose headquarters were destroyed in 9/11 and the Saudi's law firm representative on the Tour Board went for the $$$ and hope everyone else does the same.

I always get a laugh at this kind of thing. Yeah, only bad people are motivated by their self interests ... or the big bad "greed." We're all motivated by our self interests .. and hopefully if we're fairly grounded, we can have self interest in serving others as well. Kind of what makes society and the economy work. I'm sure you didn't accept a job for less than you're worth, correct? Maybe you have, I don't know, but I'm guessing if you did, you haven't done it twice


As far as the shot at being "newsmax" - facts are just facts .. they might suck for you, but if you don't think his family is a mob, I don't know what to tell ya .. maybe the sky isn't blue ..

OK… calm down there Tara Reade…


The ‘facts’ as you describe them are actually thus… There was a ‘whistleblower’ complaint on Biden registered with the Dept. Of Justice. This was investigated by the FBI. As a result of that investigation no further action is being taken. As far as the FBI was concerned it was a nothing-burger. Some Republican Congress-critter decided to make name for himself by demanding access to this investigation. Christopher Wray (Trump appointed director of the FBI) correctly decided that he wouldn’t turn over those documents for the Republicans to use as political capital. When they threatened to hold him in contempt he took a couple of them into a secure room and allowed them to read the investigation summary. They left saying nothing because they - for once - decided not to make even bigger fools of themselves.


Those are the facts Tara… if that doesn’t convince you I suggest you move to Russia or Saudi Arabia and find some ‘alternative’ facts.

Calm as can be here. We don't gather information from the same places. It's all good. Some people still don't think they were lied to about the vaccine either ... or well, anything, really. If you really think Joe and his family haven't taken money from foreign entities, then that's cool. We will disagree.

[Mike Wagner]

From today's NYT:
One of the few people who accurately predicted the outcome of this saga was Donald Trump, who remains close to Saudi officials and whose clubs hosted several LIV events.

“All of those golfers that remain ‘loyal’ to the very disloyal PGA,” Trump wrote in an online post last summer, “will pay a big price when the inevitable merger with LIV comes, and you get nothing but a big ‘thank you’ from PGA officials.” Now Trump stands to benefit from the merger. The PGA Tour suddenly seems more likely to hold events at his courses.

Surprise, the Antichrist got it right. Now he can watch it from his prison cell.

I'm curious with all your anti-Trump posts ... how do you feel about the current president that has a very difficult time actually completing a sentence, a thought, or keeping his balance, and has taken money from our enemies for himself and his family?

PM me if you want to debate politics or watch a week of MSNBC or CNN for the truth and not what FOX Noise tells you. President Biden is a decent man and you can't say that about the traitor Comrade Trumpsky. There is a reason the PGA Tour banned tournaments on his courses. At least for now.

I don't watch Fox, but saying I should watch MSNBC and CNN for the truth is the funniest post of the year!! 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I don't know if I can explain it more clearly than last time, but I'll try. And I'll concede that I don't know the details of the deal, obviously, or when it will be finalized.

Stretch and a half there, George.

"I will also concede that the relationship is not as direct as the LIV golfers and admin."

Ya think?!?!?

[Rob Marshall]

From today's NYT:
One of the few people who accurately predicted the outcome of this saga was Donald Trump, who remains close to Saudi officials and whose clubs hosted several LIV events.

“All of those golfers that remain ‘loyal’ to the very disloyal PGA,” Trump wrote in an online post last summer, “will pay a big price when the inevitable merger with LIV comes, and you get nothing but a big ‘thank you’ from PGA officials.” Now Trump stands to benefit from the merger. The PGA Tour suddenly seems more likely to hold events at his courses.

Surprise, the Antichrist got it right. Now he can watch it from his prison cell.

I'm curious with all your anti-Trump posts ... how do you feel about the current president that has a very difficult time actually completing a sentence, a thought, or keeping his balance, and has taken money from our enemies for himself and his family?

PM me if you want to debate politics or watch a week of MSNBC or CNN for the truth and not what FOX Noise tells you. President Biden is a decent man and you can't say that about the traitor Comrade Trumpsky. There is a reason the PGA Tour banned tournaments on his courses. At least for now.

I don't watch Fox, but saying I should watch MSNBC and CNN for the truth is the funniest post of the year!!

I was thinking the same thing……..

[Craig Sweet]

I think it's all going to come crashing down. It won't be tomorrow, and maybe not for another 10, 15 years....No more tour, no more golf on TV.   It will be a circus that no one will care about....like the NBA.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

The PGA has nothing to do with this, btw.

The PGA Tour, on the other hand…

[George Pazin]

Thanks, Erik! I always appreciate your highly nuanced insights.

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