Bar Maids At Pine Valley?

[Jim_Coleman]

https://www.inquirer.com/news/pine-valley-golf-club-discrimination-lawsuit-settlement-20230510.html

[Matt Schoolfield]

I'm shocked! Shocked to find that gambling is going on in here.

[Tom_Doak]

Interesting.  PV incorporated itself as a town many years ago, I think partly to avoid property tax assessments.  (They were required to maintain their own fire department and police department, among other things.)  it sounds like that made them more open to the discrimination suit.

[Matt Schoolfield]

more open

This is true, but looking into it, the New Jersey Law Against Discrimination seems pretty clear here:

The New Jersey Law Against Discrimination (LAD) prohibits discrimination and harassment in employment, housing, and places of public accommodation (places that are generally open to the public), based on actual or perceived gender.

(Source: NJ Fact Sheet: Gender Discrimination [pdf])

The Attorney General's complaint (here) is overt in stating they are accusing Pine Valley GC of violating the law with regards to gender discrimination in terms of all three of these conditions, not just in terms of a public accommodation:

• Employment: offering jobs to men preferentially and discriminating on attire between genders.
  
• Housing: sale of housing only available for men to purchase.
• Public Accommodation (this is where the terms of the incorporation as a city seem to be relevant)
  

I'm obviously not a lawyer, but it seems that the public accommodation technicality wasn't essential to the case.

Just such a cliched, bad look when they obviously have the resources to have lawyers review their employment conditions and housing sales (much less even want to operate with these discriminatory policies). The settlement is here [pdf] if anyone is curious (it's short). I'm glad all parties involved seemed aggressive in coming up with a solution to this.

[Mike Wagner]

more open

This is true, but looking into it, the New Jersey Law Against Discrimination seems pretty clear here:

The New Jersey Law Against Discrimination (LAD) prohibits discrimination and harassment in employment, housing, and places of public accommodation (places that are generally open to the public), based on actual or perceived gender.

(Source: NJ Fact Sheet: Gender Discrimination [pdf])

The Attorney General's complaint (here) is overt in stating they are accusing Pine Valley GC of violating the law with regards to gender discrimination in terms of all three of these conditions, not just in terms of a public accommodation:

• Employment: offering jobs to men preferentially and discriminating on attire between genders.
  
• Housing: sale of housing only available for men to purchase.
• Public Accommodation (this is where the terms of the incorporation as a city seem to be relevant)
  

I'm obviously not a lawyer, but it seems that the public accommodation technicality wasn't essential to the case.

Just such a cliched, bad look when they obviously have the resources to have lawyers review their employment conditions and housing sales (much less even want to operate with these discriminatory policies). The settlement is here [pdf] if anyone is curious (it's short). I'm glad all parties involved seemed aggressive in coming up with a solution to this.

I'd love to hear your opinion on who you think "won"?

[Matt Schoolfield]

I'd love to hear your opinion on who you think "won"?

I mean the obvious answer is the people of New Jersey. They want this type of discrimination to be banned within their borders, and they seem pretty passionate about it (the law in question was even expanded last year to prevent types of employment discrimination against folks working above the retirement age). If you wanted to get more granular, you could point to every qualified woman looking for work when the club was preferentially (only) hiring men. These types of casual discrimination that persist in some old clubs is just plain odd.

[Mike Wagner]

I'd love to hear your opinion on who you think "won"?

I mean the obvious answer is the people of New Jersey. They want this type of discrimination to be banned within their borders, and they seem pretty passionate about it (the law in question was even expanded last year to prevent types of employment discrimination against folks working above the retirement age). If you wanted to get more granular, you could point to every qualified woman looking for work when the club was preferentially (only) hiring men. These types of casual discrimination that persist in some old clubs is just plain odd.

Interesting you think it's odd. I wonder how many women were banging down the door to work at a primarily men only club. I'm sure there are plenty of qualified women, just seems there are better venues / cases for a fight.


How about if women wanted to start a private club and only have women working there? I'd hate to be the guy causing a stir over that.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Interesting you think it's odd. I wonder how many women were banging down the door to work at a primarily men only club. I'm sure there are plenty of qualified women, just seems there are better venues / cases for a fight.

How about if women wanted to start a private club and only have women working there? I'd hate to be the guy causing a stir over that.

The people of New Jersey have decided these are the rules. I happen to think they are extremely important rules, but that's beside the point. Since you asked. Yes, I don't think it's okay if it's women-only employment. I don't think it's okay if it's men-only employment. I don't think it's okay if it's black-only employment, or white-only employment. I think people deserve to be able to access housing and employment without facing any kind of discrimination based on skin-color, creed, gender, or national origin... period. If a person can do the damn job, let them be given a chance just as much as the next person.

"A better venue"... We are talking about one of the most powerful clubs in the world. A club with members that almost certainly have everything they could ever need in life. On the other hand, the people making the complaint are probably looking for slightly above minimum wage jobs. I'm glad they have an Attorney General doing the fighting for them.

The fact that these clubs--for some absurd reason--cling to this history of discrimination... Why, for what purpose? It used to be a dumb, cruel tradition. Now it's a dumb, cruel, and illegal tradition.

Again, I'm pleased that Pine Valley was cooperative in this settlement, but for the sake of the game, this kind of nonsense needs to stop.

[Mike Wagner]

Interesting you think it's odd. I wonder how many women were banging down the door to work at a primarily men only club. I'm sure there are plenty of qualified women, just seems there are better venues / cases for a fight.

How about if women wanted to start a private club and only have women working there? I'd hate to be the guy causing a stir over that.

The people of New Jersey have decided these are the rules. I happen to think they are extremely important rules, but that's beside the point. Since you asked. Yes, I don't think it's okay if it's women-only employment. I don't think it's okay if it's men-only employment. I don't think it's okay if it's black-only employment, or white-only employment. I think people deserve to be able to access housing and employment without facing any kind of discrimination based on skin-color, creed, gender, or national origin... period. If a person can do the damn job, let them be given a chance just as much as the next person.

"A better venue"... We are talking about one of the most powerful clubs in the world. A club with members that almost certainly have everything they could ever need in life. On the other hand, the people making the complaint are probably looking for slightly above minimum wage jobs. I'm glad they have an Attorney General doing the fighting for them.

The fact that these clubs--for some absurd reason--cling to this history of discrimination... Why, for what purpose? It used to be a dumb, cruel tradition. Now it's a dumb, cruel, and illegal tradition.

Again, I'm pleased that Pine Valley was cooperative in this settlement, but for the sake of the game, this kind of nonsense needs to stop.

Not sure if it's in the story or not, but how many women applied to work at PV? How many men? What made the women more qualified?


How many women should they hire? What's the math?

[Matt Schoolfield]

Not sure if it's in the story or not, but how many women applied to work at PV? How many men? What made the women more qualified?

How many women should they hire? What's the math?

I have provided myriad references in my posts. The details are covered in the Attorney General's complaint. They weren't offering jobs to the general public. They were only hiring via word-of-mouth, not public posting job offers, and then effectively only hiring men. Given the rapid settlement, this type of operation seems pretty obviously discriminatory and obviously illegal. Your questions about the math are irrelevant. If you want to better understand the limits of NJ employment law, I suggest you consult a lawyer who specializes in it.

[Charlie Goerges]

It's not some big defeat for Pine Valley Mike, they were not compliant with the laws, they've paid for it and are going to be compliant going forward. It's a good thing.

[Mike Wagner]

It's not some big defeat for Pine Valley Mike, they were not compliant with the laws, they've paid for it and are going to be compliant going forward. It's a good thing.

Don't be so sure about that ... the word "complaint" is terrifying.