I love and hate firm and fast.

[Thomas Dai]

Speed comes with firmness. If conditions are softer the speed is reduced. That’s seasonal golf….and that makes sense.
Ciao

And that’s something else some folks seem to have forgotten about these days ……. golf’s a seasonal game and there no devine right to expect to be able to play it 365 days per year even more so in perfect and immaculately prepared conditions.
Atb

[jeffwarne]

F&F actually helps long duffed shots get near/on the green but they also create tight lies making it near impossible to clip a wedge (or bump a 7i) consistently.

That may be how firm and fast typically gets manifested in this day and age, but it isn't a requirement of firm and fast. It is possible to raise the height of cut, dry out the turf and give us firmer, faster, bouncier conditions while leaving a good cushion under the ball. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be fashionable at the moment.

Charlie, a sound post! And a bit more height also may keep balls on side/up/down slopes, which creates more interesting shots. Is there a course/example where you have seen an optimal balance being struck between firmness and reasonable height cut? Jeff's post makes me think the answer is somewhere in New Zealand ! Can't wait to make my maiden voyage there in a few years.

In the UK, I still reckon sheep nibbled height with no watering system is about as good as it gets. Those fairways will firm up in summer and make it relatively easy to match good green speeds (9ish is generally about right) and firmness. With very few exceptions, the best turf I play each year is grazed by sheep.

Ciao

+1  such a great HOC, with the added benefit of finding one's ball in the rough.
the first place I really came to admire this was Mulranny.
Of course Ireland and UK have the climate where no irrigation (mostly-see summer of 2018) works, but here in the US we could certainly reduce USE of irrigation with a higher HOC, resulting in both the cushion AND the firmness.
Fast is vastly OVERRATED, and creates the need for reduced contour in both greens and now even fairways.

Yes to all of this! I'm curious what anyone/everyone thinks would be be a good message/slogan around this to get the point across. This firmer and not-quite-so-fast conditioning with higher/dryer HOC. Supers can do it, but players need to be calling for it first.

Speed comes with firmness. If conditions are softer the speed is reduced. That’s seasonal golf….and that makes sense.


Ciao

High rolling speed along the ground(putts both on and off the green)) often occurs in the US on turf cut very short, but yet soft and often soft JUST because so much water is required to keep it alive at that HOC.

[Matt MacIver]

So brown grass is fast but is it firm, or growing?  The Brown Is Beautiful campaign may have made overshot F&F. 

[Carl Johnson]

, , , I loved the course, but the setup made it impossible for me to play it well.
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[/size]Tommy, would it help if you redefined for yourself what it means to play well?[/color]

[jeffwarne]

F&F actually helps long duffed shots get near/on the green but they also create tight lies making it near impossible to clip a wedge (or bump a 7i) consistently.

Speed comes with firmness. If conditions are softer the speed is reduced. That’s seasonal golf….and that makes sense.


Ciao

In a perfect world yes.
Your UK experience is showing.
In the US, especially in the warmer months,it is not uncommon at all see lightning fast, or super tight, and soft.
Fast once rolling, but perhaps non existent on a bounce.


Too much emphasis on fast in the states-not enough on the firm.
When you shave and/or roll grass to within a fraction of an inch of its life, in a climate with cool season grass where heat/humidity is a factor, you will very often see fast(which is popularly quantified, glorified and rewarded)........and soft.
Sadly, I even see this on bermuda grass in southern climates, though there are great exceptions to this in Aiken with Palmetto(when they don't overseed), The Tree Farm and Old Barnwell, which all are bouncy.(all three are new turf which makes that a bit easier with no thatch buildup yet)


One wonders if the turf were kept longer, drier and healthier if an inch or two or even three less on the stimp(both fairways and greens) wouldn't yield far better golf, with much more bounce, and slightly less putting roll.