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THuckaby2

Re:The Easiest Great Course in the World
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2003, 01:01:08 PM »
I am hard pressed to call North Berwick's West Links "great."  
Regardless, I have never played another course that was more likeable - no, make that lovable.  

Mike:  in my book, if I had one, and I should... likeable/lovable/making one smitten = great.

Why shouldn't it?

TH

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Easiest Great Course in the World
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2003, 01:05:22 PM »
See why the world hates lawyers?  They're insufferable when they're right.   ;D

That's not why the world hates lawyers.

Oops! Forgot the smileys!  ::)
« Last Edit: December 04, 2003, 01:06:03 PM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

THuckaby2

Re:The Easiest Great Course in the World
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2003, 01:06:41 PM »
Dan:

It's likely one of MANY reasons, and probably the least important one.

It's just timely today, that's all.   ;)

TH

THuckaby2

Re:The Easiest Great Course in the World
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2003, 01:08:40 PM »
Oh man, that's an all-time classic that our lawyer friend from SoCal absolutely NEEDS to see...

 ;D ;D ;D

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Easiest Great Course in the World
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2003, 01:13:39 PM »
In as much as I think that CPC can be had, I think its neighbor to the south, Pebble Beach may qaulify for a few votes in this category.

Set-up in non-tone-a-mint conditions and assuming non-Crosby weather, the beauty and location outweigh the golfing, sans a few holes.
"... and I liked the guy ..."

THuckaby2

Re:The Easiest Great Course in the World
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2003, 01:15:56 PM »
Mike - I've sure never thought of Pebble as "easy" ... but I guess in relation to other great courses it may well qualify.  Its numbers are similar to CPC:

Blue     72            73.8            142            6726
Gold     72            72.3            137            6352
White   71            71.2            134            6116

Brian_Gracely

Re:The Easiest Great Course in the World
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2003, 01:22:33 PM »
Mike

I thought about posting Pebble Beach as well, but then had a second thought because of the size and slope of the greens.  The one time I played there couldn't have been more perfect weather and conditioning (75 degrees, sunny, no wind, and pre-Calloway Pro-Am conditioning), and I drove the ball as well as I ever have.  But the size and slope of those greens make it tough to go really low if you miss any of them.  Then factor in the "break towards the ocean" component and the greens become that much more difficult.

In wind-less conditions (which is not normal), I'd nominate Turnberry Ailsa.  Not overly long, fairways are reasonably generous, greens are not that difficult and are slow.  But, like Pebble, the views and surroundings are good for a few shots against par.

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Easiest Great Course in the World
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2003, 01:30:09 PM »
Mike - I've sure never thought of Pebble as "easy" ... but I guess in relation to other great courses it may well qualify.  Its numbers are similar to CPC:

Blue     72            73.8            142            6726
Gold     72            72.3            137            6352
White   71            71.2            134            6116


Compare Pebble to Pasatiempo ...

Blue      70   72.6   141   6,439
White    70   71.2   137   6,131

Does Pasa play 2 strokes harder then Pebble, Gold vs. Blue (Pasa plays 2.6 over par while Pebble is 0.3)?  I think so ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

JohnV

Re:The Easiest Great Course in the World
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2003, 01:30:36 PM »
I'm surprised nobody has named that other Mackenzie course down in Georgia.  Played from the members tees at the non-Masters green speeds Augusta National is probably a candidate.

THuckaby2

Re:The Easiest Great Course in the World
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2003, 01:34:45 PM »
Mike:  

Being the slave to these numbers that I am, of course I'll say heck yeah, Pasa is relatively tougher than Pebble...

And I'd say that even if I weren't a slave to these numbers.  It is.  Pasa is one bitch of a golf course... even beyond it's numbers, if I am allowed to say that.   ;D

But that doesn't make Pebble "easy"... Again, relative to Medinah, Spyglass, Oakmont - acknowledged beasts - I'd say it does fall on the easier side.  But relative to The Old Course, North Berwick, Dornoch... well... if my life depended on breaking 80, I'd take my chances overseas before Pebble....

TH


Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Easiest Great Course in the World
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2003, 02:07:17 PM »
I have to nominate Royal Dornoch.  Last time I played there, a couple of years ago, I went round in 77 gross off a 14.7 handicap. Standard Scratch is 74. Had I been in a competition there would be a strong letter from the Dornoch Secretary to the Conwy Secretary toi find out if had a record for cheating. But if you'd seen me at Nairn (gorgeous course) the day before you would know that this was a complete fluke.  One of those days when nothing could go wrong.

blasbe1

Re:The Easiest Great Course in the World
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2003, 02:26:58 PM »
With little wind and fog I nominate Pacific Dunes.  If you survive #s 4 & 7 on the front you can go low on the back.

Black 71 72.9 133 6557
Green 71 70.9 131 6174


Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Easiest Great Course in the World
« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2003, 03:07:23 PM »
If you added the caveat "under normal conditions", perhaps the list would change.  A second condition might be the first time you play the course, or after repeated play.

TOC from the back (non-Open) tees was very difficult for me.  I missed the Fazio framing which I am so fond of, and the lack of trees, the numerous blind hazards, and rather bleak, open terrain made it very difficult for me to get my bearings.  I don't know for sure, but I suspect that the average and bad weather both are worse at TOC than CPC, making it more of a factor.

Despite my failures on 14, 15, 16, and 18 at CPC a couple of year ago, it was a good round that could have been much better.  The weather that day was probably much better than usual (wind 10 - 15 mph?, warm), and the greens putted well.  Had my caddie handed me the correct club on 16 (or Dr. Moriarty made a sound, convincing argument as to the merits of playing left with a mid-iron) and watched my approach shot just to the right of 18th green, a sub-70 round was possible (I hope that Barry is not a GCAer).  Rihc shot a 74, and as I recall, his putter was rather bulky that day.  I think that our best ball was a 66.

Bottom line- CPC fits my eye and I am comfortable there, so it is my nominee.  Under extreme weather, it too can be a bear as my high 80s score in gusting 35+mph winds and punched greens demonstrates.  It was still great fun, particularly walking away from the 18th counting my first and only winnings in a match against my GCA nemenis.

Re: Augusta National, a buddy of mine played it a few times during the fall season and he says that while tee to green the course is not very demanding (before the last couple of lengthenings), the greens are still mind-boggling.  Sort of like Pasatiempo, if the greens are maintained around 8', the nature of the course would be much different.


THuckaby2

Re:The Easiest Great Course in the World
« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2003, 03:22:35 PM »
Bottom line- CPC fits my eye and I am comfortable there, so it is my nominee.  Under extreme weather, it too can be a bear as my high 80s score in gusting 35+mph winds and punched greens demonstrates.  It was still great fun, particularly walking away from the 18th counting my first and only winnings in a match against my GCA nemenis.

 ;D ;D ;D

That was great fun for me as well, even coming away a little lighter in the wallet!

I guess I should have been there that day with you and Goodale and Shivas... my thoughts might be different.  Unfortunately, in person I have yet to see a decent score posted there, including by me!  I did play pretty well with Gib, JB and Strawn, but all that added up to was a 75 or something... and that was under pretty benign conditions.  I haven't seen anyone do better than that in person... I have seen too many good players struggle too mightily at CPC for me to ever call it "easiest."  Comparitively, look at it this way - in my recent trip we had a 16 handicapper shoot 82 at The Old Course, and several others in the 12-15 range score right around that.  No way any of them do that at Cypress - I'd stake my life on it.

Thus do personal experiences cloud our thoughts... and I am the most guilty at this, mea culpa!

TH

ps - don't you EVER mention again any thoughts of going left on 16.  We use you in that round as our cardinal, prime example of how wrong Moriarty is about that golf hole.  How dare you weaken our argument so!   ;D

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Easiest Great Course in the World
« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2003, 03:49:17 PM »
TH-

If I get the opportunity to play CPC again, no matter what my score is, I am aiming right on 16 and hitting a driver.  No machoflat ware off-the-wall like Shivas, or loose-skirt Moriarty layup to the left (my real nemesis has always been the left, literally and figuratively).  Rihc hit a pedestrian drive to the right where there is plenty of room and made an easy three.  I learned then why they call him "Brains".  Unfortunately, by the time I played the course a year later, I had forgotten that lesson.  Here is hoping that there is a next time.  

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Easiest Great Course in the World
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2003, 04:08:23 PM »
I'll throw in a vote for Pebble. I gagged away a very good round there earlier this year on a day that few here would describe as ideal conditions -- cool and rainy most of the day. If I could have overcome my excitement about playing there, and found even a semblance of a putting stroke, I'd have "had" the course.

In comparison, I was never in the fight at Spyglass, and Pasatiempo toyed with me, finally administering the knockout blow on 16.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

THuckaby2

Re:The Easiest Great Course in the World
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2003, 04:27:48 PM »
I'm with shivas - Lou, absent wind you don't need driver.  3wood to right side works just fine, maybe even less club.  Goodale's infamous "easy driver, right side of green, no problem" was a fluke by an old man.   ;D ;D ;D

The good news is you are back in the fold anyway.

TH

Paul_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Easiest Great Course in the World
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2003, 04:43:30 PM »
Darren K:

You've thought up a terrific idea for a thread, and it's a brain-teaser all right.

One of the beaut things about this site is it's tolerance for contrary points of view; so I guess I'm at the opposite end of the scale to you regarding Royal Melbourne (West).

In normal conditions, with breeze flapping, and the pins in precarious positions, the West Course remains a collossal challenge for most golfers. Guests sometimes play from the forward tees and may not see the extent of this great layout. Sometimes guests play around the time when the greens have been "worked" on, effectively removing their venon glands. Sometimes, you'll strike a windless day, or a combination of all three above. Anyhow, taken over a full year's play in all four seasons, you do encounter some remarkable changes in conditions (course and weather) that would surely temper your thoughts.

Interestingly, Royal Melb can be less simple on 2nd, 3rd and 4th outings, when visitors are no longer content to confine themsleves to [middle of the fairway] safety; they take on the exciting "pro" lines and all manner of trouble opens up. Mackenzie strikes back!
 
I know you mentioned the West Course, and not the Composite, but it is worth reflecting that "Big Easy" Ernie Els has won the past two Heinekin Classics at RMGC. In one of these, he shot 17 under par, aided by an awesome opening round of 64, and averaged 69s for the next three rounds. You may recall this occured during his hot-spell scoring spree of shooting 35, 31, 29 under-par scores around the globe. The locals puffed out their chests with pride - chuffed at "Easy's" relative difficulty in tearing the joint apart - especially, as the wind was taking a vacation that week.

Perhaps the really great courses like TOC, Cypress Point, and Royal Melbourne boast the shared quality of being the EASIEST and the HARDEST, and that's what makes them such a joy to play and constant source of fascination.

 

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Easiest Great Course in the World
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2003, 04:54:44 PM »
....fernandina national beach muni ..whatever
   hands down in my book [in the easiest great course no one has played category] except TP of course.......
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Darren_Kilfara

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Easiest Great Course in the World
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2003, 04:55:37 PM »
Paul,

I'm aware from my recent visit that many locals disagree with my assessment of Royal Melbourne - at least one other person related to me that exact story about Ernie's 72-hole total, pointing to RM's real difficulty. Your point about a course being either the easiest or the hardest, even independent of polar-opposite weather conditions, probably holds true for RM and TOC, and thereby testifies to their greatness. (Although having said that, I can't see myself as being tempted to cut many of the driving corners at RM, as I didn't think the approach angles were really that important given that the green complexes didn't seem THAT difficult...)

By the way, I'm sorry not to have looked you up when I was in Melbourne - a ghastly oversight which I'm afraid isn't likely to be rectified any time soon. You'll have to look me up instead, on your next trip to East Lothianshire...

Cheers,
Darren

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Easiest Great Course in the World
« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2003, 05:16:59 PM »
Darren,
There was little temptation for you to cut the corners on the day you played at RMW for two reasons:
i) the greens were as soft as I've ever seen them
ii) the pins were all in the centre of the greens

With bouncy greens (like Portsea the day before) and pins tucked in the corners like they are at the Heineken, one must position his ball perfectly in the fairway to have any chance of getting close.  You'll also find that when the greens are quick, keep the ball below the hole becomes so important as to cause a significant mental challenge from the fairway.

You also played from 15-20 yards forward on every tee (excluding the par-3's), which makes it a very different golf course to the one played in medal conditions.  In short, you saw RMW at its absolute easiest.  That isn't "normal conditions" or "median conditions" - the polar opposite in fact!


« Last Edit: December 04, 2003, 05:32:58 PM by Chris Kane »

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Easiest Great Course in the World
« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2003, 05:23:40 PM »
Pebble & The Old Course EASY?  Am I a far greater chump than I thought?  Or merely a world-class gag artist on great layouts?  

Mike (Mr. 86) Hendren
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

THuckaby2

Re:The Easiest Great Course in the World
« Reply #47 on: December 04, 2003, 05:28:48 PM »
Easy for great courses, Mike.  Easy on an absolute level, no way.  You are no chump.

Tom (86*/74 on TOC recently, anything from 100 down to 75 at Pebble) Huckaby

* including a 10 on #15, influenced by the worst caddie in the history of golf... separate sad story....

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Easiest Great Course in the World
« Reply #48 on: December 04, 2003, 06:25:52 PM »
Misquamicut on a calm day,

but man is it fun.


Myopia, if you are putting well.


Mayfield (Ohio) if you keep it in play


   

Shane Gurnett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Easiest Great Course in the World
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2003, 05:20:42 AM »
Darren,

This is an interesting question, partly because it, for me, using RM West as the example, poses more questions:

Easy for whom? I have played RM many times with a variety of golfers, across all handicap ranges in all conditions. The high handicappers find it very difficult, because all the fairway bunkers are in play for them. The mid handicappers usually walkoff after 18 telling everyone in sight that the course is p*ss easy, because "you can drive it anywhere around here, its too easy".  A closer examination of their score card usually indicates otherwise.The low markers usually score quite well against par of 72. In reality, RM West is a par 68 or 69. It may be, for some, an easy par 72, but its a pretty tough test against a realistic par of the lower number.

RM West's greatness is in no small measure due to its adherence to Mackenzie's princiaples of "easy bogeys, but tough pars". A chopper who thought a little bit about his game ought to score well there, but the temptation is always on to push the limits in the hope of those "easy birdies" or more likely resultant doubles. RM West may be the ultimate course where each hole can yield a low score, yet just as easily hit back with a high number.

Maybe thats what make it just so damn good.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2003, 05:22:32 AM by Shane Gurnett »