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V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #125 on: April 22, 2023, 03:54:34 PM »
It seems to me that people are trying to make a tv entertainment product better by changing the rules.
We can't really be concerned with the outcome of tv golf. They can do their own thing to figure out how to improve their product. THERE'S A TRUE "BINGO" SA... THE PROBLEMS OF SLO-PLAY AT ONES OWN TREKS IS A TASK FOR THAT CLUB...THE TV PRODUCT HAS BEEN AND IS THRIVING
Sean:
...
The reason to crack down on slow play on TV, is  - IN YOUR OPINION TOM, NOT IN ANY FACT - that the habits of pro golfers become ingrained in average golfers and junior golfers via TV exposure.  Where did you learn you need to get an accurate yardage for every shot?  FROM THE DRIVING RANGE I WENT ON AS A CHILD WITH BIG NUMBERS TELLING ME THE YARDAGE FROM THE TEE I WAS HITTING...FROM THE GOLF COURSE, CADDYING FOR PEOPLE THAT ASKED ME THE YARDAGE That you need to establish a methodical pre-shot routine?  ASK THE THOUSANDS OF GOLF PROFESSIONALS WHO ARE DOING THAT STUFF FOR $150 AN HOUR...That you need to plumb-bob your putting line, or look at the putt from all sides of the hole, or however you line up your putts?  Most likely it was from pro golfers on the TV. NO, THAT'S LIKE THE STOP THE STEAL "LAWYERS" HAVING CALCULATED STATISTICAL PROBABILITY THAT TRUMP HAD TO HAVE WON PRECINCTS BECAUSE OF HOW HE WAS POLLING...THE FALLACY "AFTER THIS, BECAUSE OF THIS"

Tom

I am hardly going to blame Cantlay for monkey see monkey do behaviour...

This is a wild discussion. Guys are saying tv golf is too slow. So lets lets further complicate complicated rules so a tv golf is more entertaining. Maybe folks should stop watching. If it is not entertaining do something else....and if you are doing something else, why do you care?
Again, double - bingo SA...120 posts of scorn and you guys are watching f'n TV!!!???...Go make a sandwich, have a glass of milk, empty the dishwasher or simply record and watch with the remote, or as Sean says, don't watch...You don't like the caddy-confabs, that's TV's fault for showing you it, not some inured cultural fault...on the local level, I've had thousands upon thousands of those conferences... WHAT OTHER POINT IS THERE?? YOUR SCORE? YOUR OUTCOMES? But if you still can't stomach it on TV, watch other players on one of the other web platforms, or the ladies golf or the seniors golf, or the Korn Ferry golf....it's not slow play unless the group or the player is on the clock and exceeding his allotment...and I find those conferences more fascinating than not, the figuring of elite players of shots under course conditions and competitive stress?? Are you frickin' kidding me.

Cantlay's situation on #14?!!! That's one of the only reasons TO WATCH GOLF on TV...the competitive tension of moment, score and situation was positively delicious for TV drama...and I'll say, if no one else will, that because it was Cantlay (under slo-play assault) and because his decision went longer and longer, the tension of that moment was all the better... yes Billy Foster feigning sleep was great, part of it too...

Address slow play at your own joint, keep your mitts off the TV - go watch LIV on the WB.

"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #126 on: April 22, 2023, 07:07:28 PM »
How does all this time keeping jiggery pokery work for the average golfer? It seems to me that people are trying to make a tv entertainment product better by changing the rules. That is a poor place to start for any rule which applies to all golfers. Are we becoming more in favour of bifurcation?
It's not bifurcation in the typical sense of the word to institute a Pace of Play Policy. The AJGA already has one. Some AGA events (like GAP events) already have one. The USGA has one for several of its events.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #127 on: April 22, 2023, 07:54:42 PM »
How does all this time keeping jiggery pokery work for the average golfer? It seems to me that people are trying to make a tv entertainment product better by changing the rules. That is a poor place to start for any rule which applies to all golfers. Are we becoming more in favour of bifurcation?
It's not bifurcation in the typical sense of the word to institute a Pace of Play Policy. The AJGA already has one. Some AGA events (like GAP events) already have one. The USGA has one for several of its events.

For well supported comps it's not that hard. Although it's much easier to have a total time mandate. What about casual play?   Maybe we have to accept that casual play scores will always be less reliable even though they are a significant percentage of counting scores for many golfers?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #128 on: April 23, 2023, 07:12:42 AM »
I haven't read this entire thread but I did hear Lanny Wadkins talking about slow play and he said on tour there should only be one yardage book between the player and caddie - he pointed out how long Bernhard Langer takes because he and his caddie have to each make their computation, etc., before playing a shot. I was yelling at the TV when Cantlay took about 5 minutes to hit one off the wood piling a couple of weeks ago and Lanny pointed to that as well.  His pointing out how slow Langer is rather surprised me as he broadcasts the Champions Tour and those comments might not be taken well by the player or the tour. 

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #129 on: April 23, 2023, 07:54:38 AM »
How does all this time keeping jiggery pokery work for the average golfer? It seems to me that people are trying to make a tv entertainment product better by changing the rules. That is a poor place to start for any rule which applies to all golfers. Are we becoming more in favour of bifurcation?
It's not bifurcation in the typical sense of the word to institute a Pace of Play Policy. The AJGA already has one. Some AGA events (like GAP events) already have one. The USGA has one for several of its events.

For well supported comps it's not that hard. Although it's much easier to have a total time mandate. What about casual play?   Maybe we have to accept that casual play scores will always be less reliable even though they are a significant percentage of counting scores for many golfers?

Ciao


I don’t think there has ever been a question that competitive play scores would be more reliable than casual rounds especially since the advent of online posting. I won’t venture to guess the percentage of players that are either unaware of or don’t adhere to ESC as well as the most basic rules but both issues certainly skew the data.



Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #130 on: April 23, 2023, 06:59:36 PM »
How does all this time keeping jiggery pokery work for the average golfer? It seems to me that people are trying to make a tv entertainment product better by changing the rules. That is a poor place to start for any rule which applies to all golfers. Are we becoming more in favour of bifurcation?
It's not bifurcation in the typical sense of the word to institute a Pace of Play Policy. The AJGA already has one. Some AGA events (like GAP events) already have one. The USGA has one for several of its events.

For well supported comps it's not that hard. Although it's much easier to have a total time mandate. What about casual play?   Maybe we have to accept that casual play scores will always be less reliable even though they are a significant percentage of counting scores for many golfers?

Ciao


I don’t think there has ever been a question that competitive play scores would be more reliable than casual rounds especially since the advent of online posting. I won’t venture to guess the percentage of players that are either unaware of or don’t adhere to ESC as well as the most basic rules but both issues certainly skew the data.

I have little faith in the current system of reporting casual scores. The attesting process is a joke.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #131 on: April 23, 2023, 07:07:35 PM »
How does all this time keeping jiggery pokery work for the average golfer? It seems to me that people are trying to make a tv entertainment product better by changing the rules. That is a poor place to start for any rule which applies to all golfers. Are we becoming more in favour of bifurcation?
It's not bifurcation in the typical sense of the word to institute a Pace of Play Policy. The AJGA already has one. Some AGA events (like GAP events) already have one. The USGA has one for several of its events.

For well supported comps it's not that hard. Although it's much easier to have a total time mandate. What about casual play?   Maybe we have to accept that casual play scores will always be less reliable even though they are a significant percentage of counting scores for many golfers?

Ciao


I don’t think there has ever been a question that competitive play scores would be more reliable than casual rounds especially since the advent of online posting. I won’t venture to guess the percentage of players that are either unaware of or don’t adhere to ESC as well as the most basic rules but both issues certainly skew the data.

I have little faith in the current system of reporting casual scores. The attesting process is a joke.

Ciao


Sean-I agree as there is nothing to stop anyone from posting a score online especially an away course where there would be -0- accountability as to who and how many were in the group as a way to corroborate.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #132 on: April 23, 2023, 09:01:11 PM »
How does all this time keeping jiggery pokery work for the average golfer? It seems to me that people are trying to make a tv entertainment product better by changing the rules. That is a poor place to start for any rule which applies to all golfers. Are we becoming more in favour of bifurcation?
It's not bifurcation in the typical sense of the word to institute a Pace of Play Policy. The AJGA already has one. Some AGA events (like GAP events) already have one. The USGA has one for several of its events.

For well supported comps it's not that hard. Although it's much easier to have a total time mandate. What about casual play?   Maybe we have to accept that casual play scores will always be less reliable even though they are a significant percentage of counting scores for many golfers?

Ciao


I don’t think there has ever been a question that competitive play scores would be more reliable than casual rounds especially since the advent of online posting. I won’t venture to guess the percentage of players that are either unaware of or don’t adhere to ESC as well as the most basic rules but both issues certainly skew the data.

I have little faith in the current system of reporting casual scores. The attesting process is a joke.

Ciao


Sean-I agree as there is nothing to stop anyone from posting a score online especially an away course where there would be -0- accountability as to who and how many were in the group as a way to corroborate.


That’s why not being allowed to post a score you play alone is a joke. I can play a round next week in Florida with three guys I’ve never met and post what ever I want.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #133 on: April 24, 2023, 09:02:59 AM »
Since they track every single shot, there's certainly a way to record the time it takes to hit those shots.
Right, I believe within Shotlink there is a timestamp of when every shot was hit.


I thought of this, but it would be harder to determine when players got to their ball, whose turn it was, etc.  Not impossible, but someone would have to sort through all the data accordingly.  Or maybe there's a bot for that?


As to those who object on the grounds of someone facing a challenging shot, there would be necessary exceptions.  In baseball the batter can call time out but I believe there are limits to how often.  Maybe each player would get three times per round to go off the clock and have an extra minute or two?  But if they had to do it more than that, they'd eventually be forced to play a shot without the extra time.
My interest in timing through the shotlink data has more to do with understanding what can be learned about course design and course setup in relationship to overall pace of play. Are courses such as Colonial and Riviera faster for the field to play than places like TPC Deere Run and PGA National? Is the pace at Torrey Pines or Quail Hollow faster for a regular tour event than it is for a major championship?

Courses around the country have found that by reducing lost ball opportunities, converting more sand bunkers to rough, and keeping the rough height under control they have been able to speed up their pace of play. Do those same elements also apply to the PGA tour.  How you've previously spoken about designing Memorial Park in Houston would suggest some of those same decisions were made but for different scoring reasons, has a byproduct been quicker rounds during the Houston Open?

While I had not previously considered the ShotLink recorded times to be used for real time pace management, I could see the potential for doing so. Although, I don't believe golf should adopt something like a shot clock / play clock, Rather it would make more sense to adopt a chess clock model. For each round a player would be allotted a set amount of time to play when it is their turn, If they go over the time by the end of the round they are assessed a penalty. This way if a player chooses to spend more time on a particular challenging shot they can do so, but will have to make it up at other points in the round.



« Last Edit: April 24, 2023, 09:11:16 AM by Ben Hollerbach »

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #134 on: April 24, 2023, 09:19:43 AM »
It seems to me that people are trying to make a tv entertainment product better by changing the rules.
We can't really be concerned with the outcome of tv golf. They can do their own thing to figure out how to improve their product. THERE'S A TRUE "BINGO" SA... THE PROBLEMS OF SLO-PLAY AT ONES OWN TREKS IS A TASK FOR THAT CLUB...THE TV PRODUCT HAS BEEN AND IS THRIVING
Sean:
...
The reason to crack down on slow play on TV, is  - IN YOUR OPINION TOM, NOT IN ANY FACT - that the habits of pro golfers become ingrained in average golfers and junior golfers via TV exposure.  Where did you learn you need to get an accurate yardage for every shot?  FROM THE DRIVING RANGE I WENT ON AS A CHILD WITH BIG NUMBERS TELLING ME THE YARDAGE FROM THE TEE I WAS HITTING...FROM THE GOLF COURSE, CADDYING FOR PEOPLE THAT ASKED ME THE YARDAGE That you need to establish a methodical pre-shot routine?  ASK THE THOUSANDS OF GOLF PROFESSIONALS WHO ARE DOING THAT STUFF FOR $150 AN HOUR...That you need to plumb-bob your putting line, or look at the putt from all sides of the hole, or however you line up your putts?  Most likely it was from pro golfers on the TV. NO, THAT'S LIKE THE STOP THE STEAL "LAWYERS" HAVING CALCULATED STATISTICAL PROBABILITY THAT TRUMP HAD TO HAVE WON PRECINCTS BECAUSE OF HOW HE WAS POLLING...THE FALLACY "AFTER THIS, BECAUSE OF THIS"

Tom

I am hardly going to blame Cantlay for monkey see monkey do behaviour...

This is a wild discussion. Guys are saying tv golf is too slow. So lets lets further complicate complicated rules so a tv golf is more entertaining. Maybe folks should stop watching. If it is not entertaining do something else....and if you are doing something else, why do you care?
Again, double - bingo SA...120 posts of scorn and you guys are watching f'n TV!!!???...Go make a sandwich, have a glass of milk, empty the dishwasher or simply record and watch with the remote, or as Sean says, don't watch...You don't like the caddy-confabs, that's TV's fault for showing you it, not some inured cultural fault...on the local level, I've had thousands upon thousands of those conferences... WHAT OTHER POINT IS THERE?? YOUR SCORE? YOUR OUTCOMES? But if you still can't stomach it on TV, watch other players on one of the other web platforms, or the ladies golf or the seniors golf, or the Korn Ferry golf....it's not slow play unless the group or the player is on the clock and exceeding his allotment...and I find those conferences more fascinating than not, the figuring of elite players of shots under course conditions and competitive stress?? Are you frickin' kidding me.

Cantlay's situation on #14?!!! That's one of the only reasons TO WATCH GOLF on TV...the competitive tension of moment, score and situation was positively delicious for TV drama...and I'll say, if no one else will, that because it was Cantlay (under slo-play assault) and because his decision went longer and longer, the tension of that moment was all the better... yes Billy Foster feigning sleep was great, part of it too...

Address slow play at your own joint, keep your mitts off the TV - go watch LIV on the WB.


This is absolutely a response from a player who probably plays in 4:27 at his club and defends slow play.


We are 100% in favor of the right to play slow and determine that those who wish to take so long are no longer allowed to tee off on Saturday mornings until 11:00.


Problem solved...;-)

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #135 on: April 24, 2023, 11:59:04 AM »
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/lpga-tour-rookie-given-slow-131248719.html


Once again, a professional golf tour decides to enforce slow play ... by penalizing an unknown. God forbid they ever come down hard on a star. They are cowards. What a joke.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #136 on: April 28, 2023, 04:54:42 PM »
Perhaps slow play would get better if this happened in PGA events...I know ratings would almost certainly improve!  ;D

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/golfers-fight-over-slow-play-at-florida-golf-course/ar-AA1arBpF?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=3345ab979dc04257a43b1fc2771f30f4&ei=38

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #137 on: April 29, 2023, 03:16:25 AM »
How does all this time keeping jiggery pokery work for the average golfer? It seems to me that people are trying to make a tv entertainment product better by changing the rules. That is a poor place to start for any rule which applies to all golfers. Are we becoming more in favour of bifurcation?
It's not bifurcation in the typical sense of the word to institute a Pace of Play Policy. The AJGA already has one. Some AGA events (like GAP events) already have one. The USGA has one for several of its events.

For well supported comps it's not that hard. Although it's much easier to have a total time mandate. What about casual play?   Maybe we have to accept that casual play scores will always be less reliable even though they are a significant percentage of counting scores for many golfers?

Ciao


I don’t think there has ever been a question that competitive play scores would be more reliable than casual rounds especially since the advent of online posting. I won’t venture to guess the percentage of players that are either unaware of or don’t adhere to ESC as well as the most basic rules but both issues certainly skew the data.

I have little faith in the current system of reporting casual scores. The attesting process is a joke.

Ciao

Sean-I agree as there is nothing to stop anyone from posting a score online especially an away course where there would be -0- accountability as to who and how many were in the group as a way to corroborate.

In England we have to have the score attested on the app, but so far as I can tell it can be anybody who uses the app. Even when the score is attested by a guy in the group, I have never seen them look at the card let alone keep score as a marker, as should be the case. My guess is that many will eyeball the score when attesting to get a sense of accuracy.

On the other hand, I played in a society weekend trip and we exchanged cards for score keeping. We checked scores etc, but nobody posted their scores 🤷. I figured if I have to go through that we may as well post scores. Didn't happen.

Sorry Rob, I am not in favour of making a bad system worse by allowing single scores.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #138 on: April 30, 2023, 11:20:37 AM »
How does all this time keeping jiggery pokery work for the average golfer? It seems to me that people are trying to make a tv entertainment product better by changing the rules. That is a poor place to start for any rule which applies to all golfers. Are we becoming more in favour of bifurcation?
It's not bifurcation in the typical sense of the word to institute a Pace of Play Policy. The AJGA already has one. Some AGA events (like GAP events) already have one. The USGA has one for several of its events.

For well supported comps it's not that hard. Although it's much easier to have a total time mandate. What about casual play?   Maybe we have to accept that casual play scores will always be less reliable even though they are a significant percentage of counting scores for many golfers?

Ciao


I don’t think there has ever been a question that competitive play scores would be more reliable than casual rounds especially since the advent of online posting. I won’t venture to guess the percentage of players that are either unaware of or don’t adhere to ESC as well as the most basic rules but both issues certainly skew the data.

I have little faith in the current system of reporting casual scores. The attesting process is a joke.

Ciao

Sean-I agree as there is nothing to stop anyone from posting a score online especially an away course where there would be -0- accountability as to who and how many were in the group as a way to corroborate.

In England we have to have the score attested on the app, but so far as I can tell it can be anybody who uses the app. Even when the score is attested by a guy in the group, I have never seen them look at the card let alone keep score as a marker, as should be the case. My guess is that many will eyeball the score when attesting to get a sense of accuracy.

On the other hand, I played in a society weekend trip and we exchanged cards for score keeping. We checked scores etc, but nobody posted their scores 🤷. I figured if I have to go through that we may as well post scores. Didn't happen.

Sorry Rob, I am not in favour of making a bad system worse by allowing single scores.

Ciao


Sean, my point is it is supposed to be a game of honor and integrity. Scores don't need to be attested so why can't you post a score if you play alone? It makes no sense. I can sit in my living room and post anything I like.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #139 on: May 01, 2023, 03:16:41 AM »
Presumably it takes two to collude in posting erroneous scores Rob? Allowing one person to post without attestation is begging for even more problems, no?

Let's be forthright. It was much harder to cheat on handicap with the old UK system. There was a huge sacrifice made in switching to the US system with the idea of sacrificing reliability for unification and hopefully get more people to obtain proper handicaps. That and the disparity of systems for elite ams was causing issues.

Just about the only concession made by the US for retaining some sense of reliability was single scores don't count. It makes sense on a macro level. The talk about honesty is great, but attestation is better. It's an uphill argument to say otherwise.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #140 on: May 01, 2023, 06:06:30 AM »
I've not held an official handicap for a number of years, primarily because I've not been a member anywhere. Under the old system in the UK it was difficult to have a handicap without being a member. And if you didn't have a handicap it was more or less impossible to play in club Opens. While I'd have liked to have played in a few select Opens I've had no real desire to go to the trouble of obtaining a handicap.


So basically I have no first-hand experience of the new system. I have however spoken to friends who are members and none are particularly happy with the new system and some are fairly scathing. Apparently it has led to one or two of the members logging high scores in bounce games to get an artificially high handicap for the comps. The old system didn’t really allow that to happen.
 
Niall
« Last Edit: May 01, 2023, 06:27:18 AM by Niall C »

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #141 on: May 01, 2023, 07:53:27 AM »
I've not held an official handicap for a number of years, primarily because I've not been a member anywhere. Under the old system in the UK it was difficult to have a handicap without being a member. And if you didn't have a handicap it was more or less impossible to play in club Opens. While I'd have liked to have played in a few select Opens I've had no real desire to go to the trouble of obtaining a handicap.


So basically I have no first-hand experience of the new system. I have however spoken to friends who are members and none are particularly happy with the new system and some are fairly scathing. Apparently it has led to one or two of the members logging high scores in bounce games to get an artificially high handicap for the comps. The old system didn’t really allow that to happen.
 
Niall


In an effort to simplify the system with ease of access through online posting of scores a Pandora’s Box was opened as to gaming the system. It applies to the vanity handicaps as well as the sandbaggers although the sandbaggers have won the day.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #142 on: May 01, 2023, 07:59:15 AM »
I've not held an official handicap for a number of years, primarily because I've not been a member anywhere. Under the old system in the UK it was difficult to have a handicap without being a member. And if you didn't have a handicap it was more or less impossible to play in club Opens. While I'd have liked to have played in a few select Opens I've had no real desire to go to the trouble of obtaining a handicap.


So basically I have no first-hand experience of the new system. I have however spoken to friends who are members and none are particularly happy with the new system and some are fairly scathing. Apparently it has led to one or two of the members logging high scores in bounce games to get an artificially high handicap for the comps. The old system didn’t really allow that to happen.
 
Niall


In an effort to simplify the system with ease of access through online posting of scores a Pandora’s Box was opened as to gaming the system. It applies to the vanity handicaps as well as the sandbaggers although the sandbaggers have won the day.

Tim

The US handicap system has a long history of poor reliability.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #143 on: May 01, 2023, 08:03:45 AM »
I've not held an official handicap for a number of years, primarily because I've not been a member anywhere. Under the old system in the UK it was difficult to have a handicap without being a member. And if you didn't have a handicap it was more or less impossible to play in club Opens. While I'd have liked to have played in a few select Opens I've had no real desire to go to the trouble of obtaining a handicap.


So basically I have no first-hand experience of the new system. I have however spoken to friends who are members and none are particularly happy with the new system and some are fairly scathing. Apparently it has led to one or two of the members logging high scores in bounce games to get an artificially high handicap for the comps. The old system didn’t really allow that to happen.
 
Niall


In an effort to simplify the system with ease of access through online posting of scores a Pandora’s Box was opened as to gaming the system. It applies to the vanity handicaps as well as the sandbaggers although the sandbaggers have won the day.

Tim

The US handicap system has a long history of poor reliability.

Ciao


Sean-No argument on that. My only point is that it’s never been easier to manufacture a handicap as with the current system.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #144 on: May 01, 2023, 08:21:32 AM »
I've not held an official handicap for a number of years, primarily because I've not been a member anywhere. Under the old system in the UK it was difficult to have a handicap without being a member. And if you didn't have a handicap it was more or less impossible to play in club Opens. While I'd have liked to have played in a few select Opens I've had no real desire to go to the trouble of obtaining a handicap.


So basically I have no first-hand experience of the new system. I have however spoken to friends who are members and none are particularly happy with the new system and some are fairly scathing. Apparently it has led to one or two of the members logging high scores in bounce games to get an artificially high handicap for the comps. The old system didn’t really allow that to happen.
 
Niall


In an effort to simplify the system with ease of access through online posting of scores a Pandora’s Box was opened as to gaming the system. It applies to the vanity handicaps as well as the sandbaggers although the sandbaggers have won the day.

Tim

The US handicap system has a long history of poor reliability.

Ciao


Sean-No argument on that. My only point is that it’s never been easier to manufacture a handicap as with the current system.

I don't know about that. I invented two US handicaps for friends to meet TOC requirements back in 90s. Absolutely no system checks. It was common to save up a bunch of scores then post them all at once. I never saw competitor cards.

Given that reliability has been totally sacrificed. I guess the real way to judge the new system is twofold

Are elite Am handicaps more accurate?

Have significantly more non-club affiliated golfers joined the system?

Ciao
« Last Edit: May 01, 2023, 11:56:36 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #145 on: May 01, 2023, 10:15:57 AM »
I've not held an official handicap for a number of years, primarily because I've not been a member anywhere. Under the old system in the UK it was difficult to have a handicap without being a member. And if you didn't have a handicap it was more or less impossible to play in club Opens. While I'd have liked to have played in a few select Opens I've had no real desire to go to the trouble of obtaining a handicap.


So basically I have no first-hand experience of the new system. I have however spoken to friends who are members and none are particularly happy with the new system and some are fairly scathing. Apparently it has led to one or two of the members logging high scores in bounce games to get an artificially high handicap for the comps. The old system didn’t really allow that to happen.
 
Niall


In an effort to simplify the system with ease of access through online posting of scores a Pandora’s Box was opened as to gaming the system. It applies to the vanity handicaps as well as the sandbaggers although the sandbaggers have won the day.

Tim

The US handicap system has a long history of poor reliability.

Ciao


Sean-No argument on that. My only point is that it’s never been easier to manufacture a handicap as with the current system.

I don't know about that. I invented two US handicaps for friends to meet TOC requirements back in 90s. Absolutely no system checks. It was common to save up a bunch of scores then post them all at once. I never saw competitor cards.

I guess the real way to judge tee new system is twofold

Are elite Am handicaps more accurate?

Have significantly more non-club affiliated golfers joined the system?

Ciao


Sean, I agree with you that the best way would be for all scores to be attested. I'm in Florida for a few weeks. I'm actually playing with a friend and my son but on Sat we picked up a single. He must post his score. I never even got his last name. He can post anything he wants. IF he played alone he can still post anything he wants. Without attesting the system is ripe to be exploited whether you play alone or with 3 guys you don't know. It makes no difference.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Jeff Evagues

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #146 on: May 01, 2023, 03:04:54 PM »
How did this turn into a handicap thread?
Be the ball

Pete_Pittock

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #147 on: May 04, 2023, 09:04:58 PM »
Bringing this back to slow play this article answers a lot of our questions.  But beware that the title might be misleading when the article gets down to point #6 (which I have pointed out before).


https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/the-simple-answer-to-the-pga-tour-s-slow-play-problem-a-first-hand-look-reveals-why-there-isn-t-one/ar-AA1aL3hn?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=2ba8a8bb37f1488486bc9ea4f49edc91&ei=27

Rob Marshall

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #148 on: May 04, 2023, 09:48:10 PM »
Played Hideout today. The carts say that play should not take longer than 3:30. Course looked full. We played in 3:15. At one point we caught the group a head of us. They looked back and never held us up again. It’s a mentality.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #149 on: May 05, 2023, 07:43:52 AM »
Bringing this back to slow play this article answers a lot of our questions.  But beware that the title might be misleading when the article gets down to point #6 (which I have pointed out before).


https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/the-simple-answer-to-the-pga-tour-s-slow-play-problem-a-first-hand-look-reveals-why-there-isn-t-one/ar-AA1aL3hn?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=2ba8a8bb37f1488486bc9ea4f49edc91&ei=27


Fitzpatrick nailed it with his criticism of the ref's at the Harbour Town comp and this article shows why. It's a litany of excuses and the writer has swallowed them whole. Clearly what the Tour needs is a new head referee.


Niall