"Slow For Everyone"

[David_Tepper]

"The Speith situation at The Open is a different animal; I don't think any of us had ever seen anything like that, and we might not ever again."

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how much time it took for the rules officials to sort out Seve's play from the car park in the 1979 Open?

[Jim_Coleman]

   Thank you, Kalen.

[A.G._Crockett]

Here is the link Jim mentioned...

https://www.pagolf.org/detail.asp?id=258&pid=5

I think that’s another version of the AJGA pace of play policy that Steve Hamblin sort of pioneered years ago.  Chris Cupit did the same thing at Rivermont, even for “ordinary” non-tournament play, with a clock beside the green every few holes set to the same time as a clock at the first tee plus the pace of play to that point.  So if you had a 10 am tee time, and you arrived at every checkpoint on time, every clock would say 10 am; it’s a graphic display of how far behind (or ahead) of pace a group is.


I think Rivermont has done away with the clocks because their GPS system lets the pro shop see exactly where every group on the course is, but the expectations and the pace are still the same. It a great policy,the best I've ever seen, and I can’t imagine why it wouldn’t work on Tour, EXCEPT that the players don’t want it.


I suspect the issue with this for state associations is manpower.  If you read the PA policy and imagine enforcing it, you’d have have to have a few volunteers scattered throughout the course. For smaller tournaments, that’s not really practical, which is why the CGA has adopted the 25 minute rule that I mentioned earlier.

[Sean_A]

Here is the link Jim mentioned...

https://www.pagolf.org/detail.asp?id=258&pid=5

I think that’s another version of the AJGA pace of play policy that Steve Hamblin sort of pioneered years ago.  Chris Cupit did the same thing at Rivermont, even for “ordinary” non-tournament play, with a clock beside the green every few holes set to the same time as a clock at the first tee plus the pace of play to that point.  So if you had a 10 am tee time, and you arrived at every checkpoint on time, every clock would say 10 am; it’s a graphic display of how far behind (or ahead) of pace a group is.


I think Rivermont has done away with the clocks because their GPS system lets the pro shop see exactly where every group on the course is, but the expectations and the pace are still the same. It a great policy,the best I've ever seen, and I can’t imagine why it wouldn’t work on Tour, EXCEPT that the players don’t want it.


I suspect the issue with this for state associations is manpower.  If you read the PA policy and imagine enforcing it, you’d have have to have a few volunteers scattered throughout the course. For smaller tournaments, that’s not really practical, which is why the CGA has adopted the 25 minute rule that I mentioned earlier.

I recall North Berwick having groups carry gps a while back. They said it was for helping to determine the slow areas. I never heard what came of this.

Ciao

[Jim O’Kane]

   When it comes to speed of play, there has been bifurcation for years. As Tim observed above, in most state and locally run amateur events, players are given a time limit to complete play with checkpoints that must be hit.

. 

The AJGA system, which Chris Cupit essentially uses at Rivermont, is the best that I've come across, and it creates a culture of playing at an acceptable pace, while allowing for situations like the one Cantlay faced on the RR ties yesterday.

Rivermont, north of Atlanta, in John's Creek?
I love what they've been doing there at that place. If I lived closer, I'd try to join.

[Pete_Pittock]

      Let's be realistic about a shot clock. In football, basketball, etc. there is one ball in play, on a defined perimeter. You need two shot-clocks and one operator for a period of about 2 1/2- 3 1/2 hours.
      In golf you would have to have 70-80 portable shot clocks with full time trained operators (one for each player on the course). For two days it would be 10-14 hours each day, for the other two days it would be 6-8 hours each day. This is the only way to have a level playing field for all players for the entire tournament.
      In team sports players have a defined salary. In golf each individual is on their own and earnings are the result of performance, and in genral half the field gets $0.00 if they fail to make a cut.
      The pace of play quidelines that JVDB mentioned work. It only needs a realistic field size limit so there is no waiting at the turn in a 1st/10th tees format.
      Caveat: A shot clock might work in the LIV format. I'd like to see them try.

[Jim_Coleman]

   Why won’t the system used by the Pa. Golf Assn. and I’m sure many other state and local organizations, work? It works for the best amateurs in the game. In Pennsylvania, it works for pros in open tournaments and in USGA qualifiers. If pros have to play a round in 4 1/2 hours, they’ll do it. Just like pitchers will throw a pitch in 15 seconds, even if they’ve never done it before.

[Sean_A]

"The time Spieth took in that situation at the Open was a joke and I think the main reason Kuchar fell away. He had the momentum at the time but after waiting 20 minutes for Spieth to sort himself out he'd clearly lost a bit of concentration."

If Kuchar was so distracted by the wait, why and how did he manage to birdie 2 of the next 4 holes? 

While I acknowledge Spieth is among the slower players, what happened on the 13th hole in the Open at Birkdale in 2017 was an extraordinary situation. 2 of the most senior rules officials in the game were right there to make sure everything was done properly and according to the rules.

Anyone who wants to know what really took place should watch this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3zfrDSqDUs

It really shouldn't have taken place. He was on the practice ground which is normally OoB. For some reason the R&A didn't treat it as such. I suspect it was a mistake.

My take is for total time. Let players decide how to use their time, but the game must be over by a certain time. First time the rule is broken the entire group is penalised, because I do think players need to police each other. After that, first offenders can be on watch and it will likely be obvious who are the problem players. After a second penalty, I would be in favour of suspension from the tour for one event.

For guys against bifurcation, how do all these clock related solutions work for us?

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

One of the problems with an expected "pace of play" in a professional event(i.e. when you go on the clock) is that it should increase throughout the day.
It's often 4:20 for a threesome, which is too much time for the first groups off and inevitably not enough for later groups.
If the first 3 groups are 4 hours, then the next 3 are 4:05 etc.up to the 4:20 for the rest of the field, it would help considerably, which is exactly how we do it for members.


In a professional event where the first group plays in exactly the prescribed 4:20,or worse yet longer, there are no penalties-especially if the delays came late in the round(before anyone could get a bad time).
At that point, no other group can play any faster and one lost ball , play through, ruling or delay backs up the whole place, and though a group may fall behind, they can easily get back into position because such a slow pace was established initially.

[Tim Gavrich]

there are 20-50 people INSIDE the ropes at every PGA Tour event.
One of them can't keep a shot clock?
Major cop out.

I agree with your point that the bodies are there if the PGA Tour wanted someone in each group's bloated entourage to carry some sort of timing device.


But if that happens...


...do those people have real power?


...are they able to penalize pros after X amount of bad times? I can just see some earnest volunteer being berated by a pro after giving a bad-time penalty.


...is it possible for all of them to be trained to start the clock at the exact correct instant relative to each shot in a way that is foolproof? Basketball games have shot clock issues all the time. In golf, there would need to be a whole new rulebook to legislate when the clock is supposed to start, and what the exceptions will be. It's hard to see any way around there being dozens of complaints/appeals of bad-time penalties if everyone is on a shot clock.


It's a nice idea in theory in part because it reminds us of recent positive edits to the way tennis and baseball are played, but it just seems that the mountain of in-round variables that make golf unique is too high to overcome. An overall time-par is much more elegant, and it has a proven track record. To your point about that time-par creeping higher as more groups come in, I think that's fine, though it also muddies things a bit and, in cases where groups move well, gives an advantage to players playing later because they can take their time where those in the early groups cannot.

[jeffwarne]

To your point about that time-par creeping higher as more groups come in, I think that's fine, though it also muddies things a bit and, in cases where groups move well, gives an advantage to players playing later because they can take their time where those in the early groups cannot.

If the opening group plays in the max allotted time(the normal procedure), everybody potentially waits- every-single-shot.
Allowing the first group to play in max allotted time(where by definition they will NEVER wait themselves)is a recipe for a slow day, and unfair to a later group for sure, who no doubt is above max time early in the round, and suceptible to going on the clock on the first lost ball etc.


I'm all for time checkpoints as well.

[Michael Tamburrini]

Here’s an article about the Shot Clock Masters in 2018, a tournament that showed how easy it is to speed up play.


https://golf.com/news/european-tours-shot-clock-masters-debuts-to-rave-reviews/?amp=1

[jeffwarne]

Here’s an article about the Shot Clock Masters in 2018, a tournament that showed how easy it is to speed up play.


https://golf.com/news/european-tours-shot-clock-masters-debuts-to-rave-reviews/?amp=1

Proof that no one really wants change, and they cave to the whataboutisms. can't do it etc.
There are always challenges when outside the box thinking is attempted.
Yet here we are watching 7 minute delays pondering a challenging shot,and inane, time consuming caddie chat is not only tolerated, but embraced by announcers.


Practical and proven method above, yet discarded.
and scores dropped...

[Ben Hollerbach]

Based on my understanding of how Shotlink data is recorded, I would expect there is a method to measure the total playing time of every round of golf played and the total amount of time between shots for every player.

Beyond measuring who's inherently faster / slower, It would seem possible to identify bottlenecks within a round that may be based on course setup. Potentially more importantly, it would also seem possible to determine which courses consistently have a faster / slower place of play than other courses. Permitting the ability to analyze why certain courses play faster / slower than others and if there are clearly identified design / setup features that have significant impacts on pace of play.

[Ken Moum]

Based on my understanding of how Shotlink data is recorded, I would expect there is a method to measure the total playing time of every round of golf played and the total amount of time between shots for every player.

Beyond measuring who's inherently faster / slower, It would seem possible to identify bottlenecks within a round that may be based on course setup. Potentially more importantly, it would also seem possible to determine which courses consistently have a faster / slower place of play than other courses. Permitting the ability to analyze why certain courses play faster / slower than others and if there are clearly identified design / setup features that have significant impacts on pace of play.

Since they track every single shot, there's certainly a way to record the time it takes to hit those shots.

[Ben Hollerbach]

Since they track every single shot, there's certainly a way to record the time it takes to hit those shots.

Right, I believe within Shotlink there is a timestamp of when every shot was hit.

[Tom_Doak]

Since they track every single shot, there's certainly a way to record the time it takes to hit those shots.

Right, I believe within Shotlink there is a timestamp of when every shot was hit.

I thought of this, but it would be harder to determine when players got to their ball, whose turn it was, etc.  Not impossible, but someone would have to sort through all the data accordingly.  Or maybe there's a bot for that?


As to those who object on the grounds of someone facing a challenging shot, there would be necessary exceptions.  In baseball the batter can call time out but I believe there are limits to how often.  Maybe each player would get three times per round to go off the clock and have an extra minute or two?  But if they had to do it more than that, they'd eventually be forced to play a shot without the extra time.

[Sean_A]

How does all this time keeping jiggery pokery work for the average golfer? It seems to me that people are trying to make a tv entertainment product better by changing the rules. That is a poor place to start for any rule which applies to all golfers. Are we becoming more in favour of bifurcation?

If bifurcation is not part of rectifying slow play, there is really only one way forward. Total round time. No exceptions. Slow time, entire group nailed. That will change golf culture in a hurry. We can't really be concerned with the outcome of tv golf. They can do their own thing to figure out how to improve their product.

Ciao

[James Reader]

Here’s an article about the Shot Clock Masters in 2018, a tournament that showed how easy it is to speed up play.


https://golf.com/news/european-tours-shot-clock-masters-debuts-to-rave-reviews/?amp=1

Does anyone know why this concept wasn’t taken forward? The article, and my memory from the time, suggests it was pretty effective and reasonably well received by the players (or at least those that were prepared to express an opinion publicly).

[jeffwarne]

Since they track every single shot, there's certainly a way to record the time it takes to hit those shots.

Right, I believe within Shotlink there is a timestamp of when every shot was hit.

  Maybe each player would get three times per round to go off the clock and have an extra minute or two?  But if they had to do it more than that, they'd eventually be forced to play a shot without the extra time.

The problem is players like Jordan Spieth get into these situations 8-10 times a round.
I watched him play out the hay on nearly every shot on the front nine of the final round at Carnoustie(I couldn't get around his gallery as he was always in it and had caddie walking all the way to the green every time)
He's not breaking any rules(unless they are out of position, behind time, and on the clock)and many of the places he hits it ARE challenging and do take time to get exact yardages. I'm just not sure you're entitled to that much information if it exceeds expected norms(in this case the shot clock would be the expected norm)
As Tom said, with a shot clock, he might just have to hit the shot(probably conservatively) without the extra time-which would only seem fair his playing partners and the field.


As far as bifurcation, Sean, surely you know pros already play a bifurcated game than ams.
For one, they play stroke play, putt out, retee etc.
Seeing them get on with it in a reasonable manner(because of a shot clock), without the endless caddie chat,can ONLY help the speed of the am game. It certainly has hurt pace(endless caddy chat) at high end places that employ caddies.

[Ben Sims]

Slow play is no different than the ball. It will take gumption and time. And the players will get royally sanctimonious about being the best players in the world and one shot potentially being worth hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars. Due in part to social media and also in part to a golf media telling the story, slow play is being appropriately vilified.

Baseball attacked slow games. College football just did this week by announcing running clocks after first downs. It will happen in golf.

[Tom_Doak]

How does all this time keeping jiggery pokery work for the average golfer? It seems to me that people are trying to make a tv entertainment product better by changing the rules. That is a poor place to start for any rule which applies to all golfers. Are we becoming more in favour of bifurcation?

If bifurcation is not part of rectifying slow play, there is really only one way forward. Total round time. No exceptions. Slow time, entire group nailed. That will change golf culture in a hurry. We can't really be concerned with the outcome of tv golf. They can do their own thing to figure out how to improve their product.

Ciao

Sean:


Well, your foursome is not going to apply a two-stroke penalty to themselves if they play slowly, and it wouldn't matter if you did, unless it was in a formal competition.


The reason to crack down on slow play on TV, is that the habits of pro golfers become ingrained in average golfers and junior golfers via TV exposure.  Where did you learn you need to get an accurate yardage for every shot?  That you need to establish a methodical pre-shot routine?  That you need to plumb-bob your putting line, or look at the putt from all sides of the hole, or however you line up your putts?  Most likely it was from pro golfers on the TV.

[jeffwarne]

How does all this time keeping jiggery pokery work for the average golfer? It seems to me that people are trying to make a tv entertainment product better by changing the rules. That is a poor place to start for any rule which applies to all golfers. Are we becoming more in favour of bifurcation?

If bifurcation is not part of rectifying slow play, there is really only one way forward. Total round time. No exceptions. Slow time, entire group nailed. That will change golf culture in a hurry. We can't really be concerned with the outcome of tv golf. They can do their own thing to figure out how to improve their product.

Ciao

The reason to crack down on slow play on TV, is that the habits of pro golfers become ingrained in average golfers and junior golfers via TV exposure.  Where did you learn you need to get an accurate yardage for every shot?  That you need to establish a methodical pre-shot routine?  That you need to plumb-bob your putting line, or look at the putt from all sides of the hole, or however you line up your putts?  Most likely it was from pro golfers on the TV.

Bingo.
You left out long caddy consultations and chats.
Multiple processes(learned from TV) take more time than fewer processes.

[Sean_A]

How does all this time keeping jiggery pokery work for the average golfer? It seems to me that people are trying to make a tv entertainment product better by changing the rules. That is a poor place to start for any rule which applies to all golfers. Are we becoming more in favour of bifurcation?

If bifurcation is not part of rectifying slow play, there is really only one way forward. Total round time. No exceptions. Slow time, entire group nailed. That will change golf culture in a hurry. We can't really be concerned with the outcome of tv golf. They can do their own thing to figure out how to improve their product.

Ciao

Sean:

Well, your foursome is not going to apply a two-stroke penalty to themselves if they play slowly, and it wouldn't matter if you did, unless it was in a formal competition.

The reason to crack down on slow play on TV, is that the habits of pro golfers become ingrained in average golfers and junior golfers via TV exposure.  Where did you learn you need to get an accurate yardage for every shot?  That you need to establish a methodical pre-shot routine?  That you need to plumb-bob your putting line, or look at the putt from all sides of the hole, or however you line up your putts?  Most likely it was from pro golfers on the TV.

Tom

I am hardly going to blame Cantlay for monkey see monkey do behaviour. I hope you and Jeff don't either. Blame individuals for their actions.

Assessing a penalty wouldn't be up to me. It would be down to the club. Comp cards can easily be stamped when returned. For casual play, I guess we all have to rely on each other to follow the rules just as we do now. I am not worried about it. Just making a more workable solution than timing each shot or hole. That is an absolute non starter unless the rules are further bifurcated. I am not going to time golfers just as I don't for the 3 minute rule. I don't even carry a watch 

This is a wild discussion. Guys are saying tv golf is too slow. So lets lets further complicate complicated rules so a tv golf is more entertaining. Maybe folks should stop watching. If it is not entertaining do something else....and if you are doing something else, why do you care?

Is golf must be the only game on the planet where a huge percentage of the particpants expect perfect rules outcomes 100% of the time. Folks, its sport. Roll with the punches.

Ciao

[Ben Sims]

I seem to remember my host and the starter at Pine Valley reporting/recording the time of our group. Maybe I imagined that, it’s been 12 years. And I think I’ve seen it some elsewhere.


I wish more clubs would do that, record playing times for members.