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Dave Doxey

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #75 on: April 16, 2023, 10:00:54 AM »
An interesting thought regarding pro tournaments:  Count the number of times a group has to wait for the group ahead of them before playing a shot.  The groups with the least number of times waiting are the slowest. Now, what to do with that information?

Paul Rudovsky

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #76 on: April 17, 2023, 05:24:59 AM »
I am amazed that no one has posted to this thread any comments regarding play at Harbour Town during yesterdays' 4th round.  It involved Cantlay as he took what seemed to be an astoundingly long time decided how to deal with an extraordinary situation...a real live true situation not some theoretical "what if". 


On the par 3 14's, he hit his tee shot left and his pitch ran thru the green and trickled to the top of the railway ties holding up the green's right side.  That chip ended up resting between two of the wood "posts" that constitute the railway ties with the bottom of the ball below the top surface of both pieces of wood (probably around 0.1" below but that is a pure guess).  He ended up playing an amazing shot to about 5' and made a bogey rather than taking a penalty shot etc for a double or worse.


I thought it would elicit a wide variety of responses on this thread.  My vote is that it shouted for a "shot clock" of some type..as did the pace of play of the final threesome throughout their round.  And my guess is that average round times this week will be up a good 5 minutes or more after golfers watched yesterday's broadcast.  I did not time how much time it took...but for sure it was more than a lost ball 3 minute limit and I think more than the old 5 minute limit.   It also ended with a brilliant shot




Rick Sides

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #77 on: April 17, 2023, 06:14:11 AM »
I do see a certain element of a PGA golfer needed to take his time being a stroke or two may cost the golfer thousands of dollars and it’s their profession . That being said some golfers still take way to much time on tee box , approach and on the green . My biggest problem with club golfers is playing from tee boxes too far back and slowing play. I travel to a lot of clubs and get paired with different people most of whom should be playing from 6100 yards rather than the 6500 or even 6700 yard tee boxes they choose.

Mark Pearce

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #78 on: April 17, 2023, 06:43:21 AM »
But then, they play an event which IS(well semi real-a BB Member Guest etc.) real golf, and the pace grinds to a a halt because they aren't used to keeping score, putting out etc. and they still have the bad slow play habits they get away with in casual no putt out scoring games.
We play medal competitions most weeks.  With all of those things.  If the round is more than 3hrs 45mins there are loud complaints.  Keeping score and putting out do not mean rounds should be slow.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tim Martin

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #79 on: April 17, 2023, 07:02:53 AM »
I am amazed that no one has posted to this thread any comments regarding play at Harbour Town during yesterdays' 4th round.  It involved Cantlay as he took what seemed to be an astoundingly long time decided how to deal with an extraordinary situation...a real live true situation not some theoretical "what if". 


On the par 3 14's, he hit his tee shot left and his pitch ran thru the green and trickled to the top of the railway ties holding up the green's right side.  That chip ended up resting between two of the wood "posts" that constitute the railway ties with the bottom of the ball below the top surface of both pieces of wood (probably around 0.1" below but that is a pure guess).  He ended up playing an amazing shot to about 5' and made a bogey rather than taking a penalty shot etc for a double or worse.


I thought it would elicit a wide variety of responses on this thread.  My vote is that it shouted for a "shot clock" of some type..as did the pace of play of the final threesome throughout their round.  And my guess is that average round times this week will be up a good 5 minutes or more after golfers watched yesterday's broadcast.  I did not time how much time it took...but for sure it was more than a lost ball 3 minute limit and I think more than the old 5 minute limit.   It also ended with a brilliant shot


My takeaway after looking at the final round pairings at Harbour Town was that Fitzpatrick would get worn down being sandwiched between slow play kings Cantlay and Speith as I remember him being pretty vocal about the pace of play at the U.S. Open at Brookline. It was a terrific shot that Cantlay played from the railroad ties but I don’t think he gets a pass for how long it took. I remember Speith taking more than twenty minutes in the 2017 British Open final round on the 13th hole to hit what was ultimately a great shot but again no pass for how long it took. I don’t know if it’s an apt analogy but as a crossword devotee I would point out that tournaments are based on both speed and accuracy.

Dan_Callahan

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #80 on: April 17, 2023, 08:31:19 AM »
Fitzpatrick reminds me of Daly back in the day, when it seemed like he was hitting many of his shots while his playing partners ball was still in the air. I can't even watch Cantlay anymore. The ball coming to rest in the penalty area on the par 3 was obviously a unique situation, and you would expect it to take more time than usual to make a decision, but good lord ... he took forever. And Spieth doesn't get a pass either. Watching him deliberate between 8 and 9 iron on 18, going back and forth countless times, screamed for a shot clock of some sort. It was great to watch Fitzpatrick choose a club, step up and hit his shot, and then start walking. That should be the norm rather than the exception. On the putting green it's the same: reads his putt, addresses the ball, hits his putt. Done.

Niall C

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #81 on: April 17, 2023, 09:02:54 AM »
Tim


The time Spieth took in that situation at the Open was a joke and I think the main reason Kuchar fell away. He had the momentum at the time but after waiting 20 minutes for Spieth to sort himself out he'd clearly lost a bit of concentration. What could the official have done ? Well instead of waiting for Spieth to ask all sorts of questions and letting him run up and down sand dunes he might have taken charge of the situation and told him straight away what his options were and advised him he was on the clock. I appreciate that's easy to say in hindsight. As an aside, Spieth's second shot wasn't that good considering he was hitting off pristine turf and had a level stance and lie. He just made the right hand rough thereby partially short siding himself. The chip and putt however were top notch.


Paul


I was a bit distracted on other things when Cantlay was going through his pre-shot routine for the bunker shot but let me assure that watching on Sky TV in the UK, that the commentary team were pretty scathing of Cantlay's general slowness throughout the round.


The particular instance that got me however was when he was third to tee-off on one hole and he stepped up and started rooting about in his pocket for a tee. After a while and failing to find one he then turns to his caddy for a tee. Why wouldn't a player be ready, ball and tee in hand, ready to step up and play their shot ? It's as though he's deliberately trying to waste time.


Given that the media are now calling these guys out for their slow play, and that golf on TV is supposed to be entertaining, I wonder how long before the likes of Cantlay get's sanctioned in some way by the Tour. What do they do on the LIV Tour ? I don't know who their slow players are but I assume they have them. Maybe 100 lashes for a first offence and something a bit more draconian for the second ?


Niall


jeffwarne

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #82 on: April 17, 2023, 09:21:21 AM »
Here's the thing.
Occasionally we all hit it somewhere weird and it might take a bit longer than usual on a routine shot.
the problem is their "usual" is so slow that whn you further increase that time it takes forever.


As someone who competes and also spends more time in the shite than most, SOMETIMES you simply have to take your medicine quickly, and punch it back out into play, even though you know with a bit more time there might be a more precise or measured option. It's a mental shot clock and if you've consistently been struggling, searching for balls etc. you have to take it on yourself to hit a shot quickly to get your group on pace.There simply may not be time for you to get another odd ball, blind shot yardage from two fairways over.


Guys like Spieth, who is in the shite a lot as well, simply think it is their divine right to have the exact walked off yardage and super rehearsed special practice swing EVERY time they are out of position.
They have no regard for the fact that they spend a lot of time in scrambling situations, which by themselves are no big deal, but cumulatively,can add up to a lot.
I didn't see the Cantley event, but it shows me he has little self awareness in light of what was reported last week.
There was even a remarking fan on 9 green about his pace-good emntal toughness but poor self awareness.
IMHO, you SHOULDN'T be allowed to take that much time for any shot. (kind've like the 10 second rule on a ball falling in the cup)


For this reason, I'm all for a shot clock, with say two occasions where you get to CALL timeout and get an extra 30 seconds.
After you use those two, you have to hit ALL shots within the prescribed time.


I watched Spieth at The Open at Carnoustie do this nonsense EVERY shot on every hole on the front nine. It was unbearable, and very disruptive to his playing partners.


Sometimes you don't deserve the exact yardage or the extra time that a certain shot (seems) to demand.
Without a shot clock, this will always be a problem for entitled players.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2023, 10:54:52 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tim Gavrich

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #83 on: April 17, 2023, 10:01:34 AM »
I would be careful about calling out Cantlay's shot from the railroad ties on 14 yesterday or Spieth's long-considered shot at Birkdale as the best examples of the slow-play epidemic. Those are two pretty extraordinary circumstances where I think it's reasonable to take some extra time to hit the shot. Exactly how much extra time, it's hard to say, but it's not really important to be precise on those circumstances because they are unpredictable by virtue of their extraordinariness.


The real problem is how long it takes so many players to play shots that are well within the big part of the bell-curve. Cantlay taking 1 1/2 playings of the Final Jeopardy! theme to hit a simple tee shot should not be acceptable to anyone with an interest in making the "product" of professional golf enjoyable and (most importantly to the ones overseeing it) commercially lucrative.


Even at the highest level, in tournaments where there are roving officials, an individual shot clock for each player is simply a non-starter. Who is going to carry the shot clock? My understanding is that there aren't usually enough rules officials to post someone with each group, and you would need at least one person dedicated to each group to oversee the clock, being the sole arbiter of when the clock begins on each and every shot. Different clock-watchers will inevitably start the clock at different times. It's close to impossible to see how it could work in an equitable way.


That being the case, an overall checkpoint system makes the most sense. The tournaments in which I've been subjected to it, you have a time par to complete each round. If you reach the established checkpoints late, you get warned, then penalized for repeat offenses. Very simple.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Dan_Callahan

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #84 on: April 17, 2023, 10:12:43 AM »
That being the case, an overall checkpoint system makes the most sense. The tournaments in which I've been subjected to it, you have a time par to complete each round. If you reach the established checkpoints late, you get warned, then penalized for repeat offenses. Very simple.


How does that work with other players in the group? Are they all penalized when the group doesn't reach the checkpoint in time? If so, imagine Fitzpatrick being penalized for slow play simply because he had the misfortune to be paired with two snails?

Tim Gavrich

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #85 on: April 17, 2023, 10:31:49 AM »
That being the case, an overall checkpoint system makes the most sense. The tournaments in which I've been subjected to it, you have a time par to complete each round. If you reach the established checkpoints late, you get warned, then penalized for repeat offenses. Very simple.


How does that work with other players in the group? Are they all penalized when the group doesn't reach the checkpoint in time? If so, imagine Fitzpatrick being penalized for slow play simply because he had the misfortune to be paired with two snails?


Usually when groups get in trouble under this system, they're subject to some scrutiny from a rules official, who can elect not to penalize a player who is clearly trying to play quickly.


But the stress of potential penalties hanging over a player's head might incentivize him or her to get the slowpokes in the group to move along. That is a feature of the system, not a bug.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

jeffwarne

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #86 on: April 17, 2023, 10:40:39 AM »
I would be careful about calling out Cantlay's shot from the railroad ties on 14 yesterday or Spieth's long-considered shot at Birkdale as the best examples of the slow-play epidemic. Those are two pretty extraordinary circumstances where I think it's reasonable to take some extra time to hit the shot. Exactly how much extra time, it's hard to say, but it's not really important to be precise on those circumstances because they are unpredictable by virtue of their extraordinariness.


The real problem is how long it takes so many players to play shots that are well within the big part of the bell-curve. Cantlay taking 1 1/2 playings of the Final Jeopardy! theme to hit a simple tee shot should not be acceptable to anyone with an interest in making the "product" of professional golf enjoyable and (most importantly to the ones overseeing it) commercially lucrative.


Even at the highest level, in tournaments where there are roving officials, an individual shot clock for each player is simply a non-starter. Who is going to carry the shot clock? My understanding is that there aren't usually enough rules officials to post someone with each group, and you would need at least one person dedicated to each group to oversee the clock, being the sole arbiter of when the clock begins on each and every shot. Different clock-watchers will inevitably start the clock at different times. It's close to impossible to see how it could work in an equitable way.


That being the case, an overall checkpoint system makes the most sense. The tournaments in which I've been subjected to it, you have a time par to complete each round. If you reach the established checkpoints late, you get warned, then penalized for repeat offenses. Very simple.


there are 20-50 people INSIDE the ropes at every PGA Tour event.
One of them can't keep a shot clock?
Major cop out.


Agreed that odd situations are not the usual slow play problems, but they do add up.
What Jordan Spieth did at Birkdale was very inconsiderate and should not have been allowed.(I fell asleep during the replay last night and missed Catlay's event, but 7 minutes is just TOO LONG.)
I'm sorry. but hitting it MILES out of position should not be allowed to be turned into an advantage for an oblivious player who has no self awareness of how long such a process takes.
Spieth has these "extraordinary circumstances" 3-4 times per round
Take your medicine more quickly and perhaps you'll learn to hit it better.



I once had a player who lost three balls and multiple searches for others(5 minute search each who then had to walk back each time, having not hit a provisional.)
We were behind and were on the clock- i had a good round going.
On 18, I was first to hit and it was a difficult tee shot, and I needed par to make the cut.
I backed off and  took 47 seconds to hit the shot.(it was a time violation and I received my first warning, which I expected)
As we we were walking down the fairway he told me I really needed to pick pace, as that was the second time I had backed off in the previous 3 holes.
After the round I not so gently explained to him that my 70 had taken far less time than his 84, and that I had spent more time looking for his ball, and waiting for him to walk backwards, than I had spent cumulatively hitting all my shots.


Slow play takes many forms, and if we are not willing to go after the low hanging fruit, there's no way we'll ever get Joe 6 pack to not sit in his cart until it is his turn to hit.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tim Martin

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #87 on: April 17, 2023, 11:03:56 AM »
Regardless of Michael Greller’s compensation agreement with Speith it’s not enough. His therapist bills alone have to be enormous.

Niall C

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #88 on: April 17, 2023, 11:11:48 AM »
Tim


I disagree. As Jeff says, it's for the player to get on and deal with the situation. After all they put themselves there. The only time there should be a delay is when a player needs a ruling.


In terms of enforcement why not simply leave it to the discretion of the referee. If he/she perceives an individual player is slow then he/she gives them a warning, and if they don't improve they get penalised one shot. No need for timeclocks or officials with each group. We know who the slow players so persecute them ! After all they are simply gaming the (current) system.


Niall

Cal Carlisle

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #89 on: April 17, 2023, 11:31:44 AM »
I have to believe Shotlink could create a timekeeping function for the Walking Scorers. Have three-hole checkpoints. If the group is over their allotted time assess penalties to the guilty party or parties.


There's a relief pitcher for the Cleveland Guardians who was notoriously slow. So far this season he's 0-2 with 4.50 ERA. The clock has been a huge problem for him. He's either going to have to figure it out or find another line of work. Good pitcher, but he was one of the reasons games were as long as they were.

jeffwarne

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #90 on: April 17, 2023, 11:37:02 AM »
I have to believe Shotlink could create a timekeeping function for the Walking Scorers. Have three-hole checkpoints. If the group is over their allotted time assess penalties to the guilty party or parties.


There's a relief pitcher for the Cleveland Guardians who was notoriously slow. So far this season he's 0-2 with 4.50 ERA. The clock has been a huge problem for him. He's either going to have to figure it out or find another line of work. Good pitcher, but he was one of the reasons games were as long as they were.




Amazing we had no problem driving people out of golf who anchored, yet we worry about driving(slow) people out with a shot clock.
In some ways golf does have this, when players are out of position and have been warned.
They usually play better.
Kudos to baseball, get with it golf.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ian Mackenzie

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #91 on: April 17, 2023, 11:45:06 AM »
Tim


I disagree. As Jeff says, it's for the player to get on and deal with the situation. After all they put themselves there. The only time there should be a delay is when a player needs a ruling.


In terms of enforcement why not simply leave it to the discretion of the referee. If he/she perceives an individual player is slow then he/she gives them a warning, and if they don't improve they get penalised one shot. No need for timeclocks or officials with each group. We know who the slow players so persecute them ! After all they are simply gaming the (current) system.


Niall


Subjectivity vs objectivity makes for bad outcomes here, Niall...;-)


Case in point: The ONLY effing time the cranks at ANGC decided to levy a slow play penalty on a player was on a 14 or 15 yo amateur kid from China.


coincidence...?...nah....doubtful.


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/tianlang-guan-receives-rare-slow-play-penalty\



Kalen Braley

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #92 on: April 17, 2023, 01:58:21 PM »
Jeff gets my vote for PGATour commish, he's exactly what they need!  ;D

P.S.  I've also been critical of Spieth ever since the 2017 Open debacle. One point of correction thou, it wasn't 20 minutes, it was actually 30.  Completely and utterly disrespectful to everyone including his competitor.  Lord knows why rule 6-7 doesn't get mentioned or enforced in these situations.

David_Tepper

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #93 on: April 17, 2023, 02:16:37 PM »
"The time Spieth took in that situation at the Open was a joke and I think the main reason Kuchar fell away. He had the momentum at the time but after waiting 20 minutes for Spieth to sort himself out he'd clearly lost a bit of concentration."

If Kuchar was so distracted by the wait, why and how did he manage to birdie 2 of the next 4 holes?  ;)

While I acknowledge Spieth is among the slower players, what happened on the 13th hole in the Open at Birkdale in 2017 was an extraordinary situation. 2 of the most senior rules officials in the game were right there to make sure everything was done properly and according to the rules.

Anyone who wants to know what really took place should watch this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3zfrDSqDUs
 

Tim Martin

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #94 on: April 17, 2023, 02:33:50 PM »
"The time Spieth took in that situation at the Open was a joke and I think the main reason Kuchar fell away. He had the momentum at the time but after waiting 20 minutes for Spieth to sort himself out he'd clearly lost a bit of concentration."

If Kuchar was so distracted by the wait, why and how did he manage to birdie 2 of the next 4 holes?  ;)

While I acknowledge Spieth is among the slower players, what happened on the 13th hole in the Open at Birkdale in 2017 was an extraordinary situation. 2 of the most senior rules officials in the game were right there to make sure everything was done properly and according to the rules.

Anyone who wants to know what really took place should watch this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3zfrDSqDUs


Sort of ironic that it takes almost sixteen minutes to explain the situation.

Kyle Harris

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #95 on: April 17, 2023, 03:23:21 PM »
You shot clock people are the true Bifurcationists.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Jim_Coleman

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #96 on: April 17, 2023, 03:38:19 PM »
   When it comes to speed of play, there has been bifurcation for years. As Tim observed above, in most state and locally run amateur events, players are given a time limit to complete play with checkpoints that must be hit.

A.G._Crockett

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #97 on: April 17, 2023, 05:18:27 PM »
   When it comes to speed of play, there has been bifurcation for years. As Tim observed above, in most state and locally run amateur events, players are given a time limit to complete play with checkpoints that must be hit.
Jim,
Can you provide examples of this?  I ask because this has NOT be my experience in GA and NC playing is sanctioned events.  In CGA tournaments, if you finish your round as much as 25 minutes after the group in front of you, you are subject to disqualification, but there is no "time limit" or checkpoints during the round. 

The AJGA system, which Chris Cupit essentially uses at Rivermont, is the best that I've come across, and it creates a culture of playing at an acceptable pace, while allowing for situations like the one Cantlay faced on the RR ties yesterday.  The Speith situation at The Open is a different animal; I don't think any of us had ever seen anything like that, and we might not ever again.
I'd also add this; I think the thing that REALLY pushed baseball to a pitch clock (which I LOVE!) was declining viewership, which golf does not face. The analogy also fails because the logistics are so different; it's easy to know when to start the clock in baseball, but when do you start it in golf after tee shots or after approach shots, given that there might be as much as a 300 yd walk in between.  And on the green, if two players are on the same line, how does the second guy get his routine, even a fast one, started until the first guy has hit his putt?
I'll admit that I'm not as concerned as many others about slow play on Tour; those guys are playing for millions and their livelihood; I don't think that's an apt comparison to my $6 Nassau or even a sanctioned senior tournament.  I do agree that it's an issue, but I don't think the fix will be especially simple, or very much like what baseball and tennis have been able to do.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Jim_Coleman

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #98 on: April 17, 2023, 05:28:22 PM »
   I am embarrassingly inept at figuring out how to attach websites to posts here. If you Google Pa. Golf Association Slow Play Policy, a full blown description will appear.  I tried to summarize how it worked earlier in this thread, as did Tim more recently. Maybe someone more ept than I will do it.

Kalen Braley

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Re: "Slow For Everyone"
« Reply #99 on: April 17, 2023, 05:33:48 PM »
Here is the link Jim mentioned...

https://www.pagolf.org/detail.asp?id=258&pid=5