Hypothetically: If LIV were backed by....

[Ian Mackenzie]

....Blackstone instead of the Saudi PIF.


...And Ernie Els was the CEO, not Greg Norman.


Would there still be the underlying enmity, or would the parties get together and build the new Super League?




I think the Saudi PIF thing may be overplayed as their involvement in F-1, Premier League and Womens' Golf is well established.


Is this whole stinking mess around LIV really only a reflection of its CEO - the Great White Bitter Shark?

[Charlie Goerges]

For me, the PIF is the problem. Couldn't care less about the rest of the operation. The F1 circles I run in are equally against the Saudi race and any efforts the PIF may be making to take over the sport.

[Ben Hollerbach]

PIF's investments are so prolific that its challenging associate the PIF as the problem while simultaneously dissociating where the PIF's money already exists.

[Steve_Roths]

The source of the funds is a problem.


Mickelson's off the record comments were pretty clear on who they got into bed with.


The bigger issue though is the trashing of the PGA tour by some of the players on the way out the door.  Forgetting of course that the PGA tour created a place for them to play, grow and then jump to this new tour.


You also have all the false statements of wanting to play less and then suddenly travelling more to get World Ranking points.


Plus the trashing of the tour at the same time groups suing to get into the FedEx playoffs and European tour events. 


It all just doesn't sit with some of us who believe that golf is played by ladies and gentleman and taking some of the actions/comments they have taken just don't align with that philosophy.

[Sean_A]

PIF's investments are so prolific that its challenging associate the PIF as the problem while simultaneously dissociating where the PIF's money already exists.

I agree. Folks are drawing highly arbitrary lines in the sand about the origin and amount of dirty money. For some reason folks turn a blind eye to the realities of dirty money in our economy. It's the American way to pick and choose the new enemy of the month among a viper's nest of countries and corporations. I am waiting for the day when the US gets serious about China and Russia. These are the hard and more important questions of our time.

Even so, I dislike LIV and hope it fails. I am disappointed in the product. LIV did serve as a springboard for radical Tour changes. However, it's only made the Tour more insular when I hoped the opposite would happen.

Ciao

[Pat Burke]

A LIV by any other name (or backers) would have still garnered the aggressive retort by the pga tour.
There have been other times there were challenges and the tour always responded with more money distributed.


The Saudis gave a convenient black hat to identify in the fight, but the fight would have been there regardless

[Steve Lapper]

Interesting hypothetical, yet I'm certain that neither Schwarzman nor Gray would ever (even for a nanosecond) consider something so financially irresponsible.


Instead, a better party might be a Russian Oligarch or the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund.

[Charlie Goerges]

PIF's investments are so prolific that its challenging associate the PIF as the problem while simultaneously dissociating where the PIF's money already exists.

I agree. Folks are drawing highly arbitrary lines in the sand about the origin and amount of dirty money. For some reason folks turn a blind eye to the realities of dirty money in our economy. It's the American way to pick and choose the new enemy of the month among a viper's nest of countries and corporations. I am waiting for the day when the US gets serious about China and Russia. These are the hard and more important questions of our time.

Even so, I dislike LIV and hope it fails. I am disappointed in the product. LIV did serve as a springboard for radical Tour changes. However, it's only made the Tour more insular when I hoped the opposite would happen.

Ciao

Ben and Sean, I agree it's complicated, I'm just of the opinion that you've got to start somewhere and Saudi is as good a place as any. I'm an incrementalist, if my whole house is a mess, I just have to pick a spot and get started.

[Kalen Braley]

Steve nailed it,

I don't see an alternate backer either because I don't think anyone else would have thrown insane money at such a venture.

P.S.  In other news, another setback for LIV players who want to keep their DP Tour memberships and/or play in those events

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/report-dp-world-tour-secures-major-legal-victory-against-liv-golf/ar-AA19sjV5?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=a252d7ab8b574b4d9e92555ccfa61bce&ei=26

[John Kavanaugh]

Too legit to quit

[Sean_A]

Steve nailed it,

I don't see an alternate backer either because I don't think anyone else would have thrown insane money at such a venture.

P.S.  In other news, another setback for LIV players who want to keep their DP Tour memberships and/or play in those events

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/report-dp-world-tour-secures-major-legal-victory-against-liv-golf/ar-AA19sjV5?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=a252d7ab8b574b4d9e92555ccfa61bce&ei=26

The penny will drop once you grasp that LIV isn't about golf for the Saudis. I am not convinced they chose the right vehicle for their goals, but golf is merely the vehicle.

Ciao

[Wayne_Kozun]

The source of the funds is a big deal for fans.  If it wasn't for that then there wouldn't be as much reason to have animosity towards LIV.
But I am guessing that the tour would be fighting back just as much as it wasn't funded by LIV.  I am old enough to remember when the WHA launched and the NHL did lots of stuff out of spite to try to block them from being successful.  In that context it is just all about the money.

[Tim Leahy]

In addition to Saudi bankrolling, the LIV using traitor criminal comrade Trumpsky courses was a major problem. Also all the LIVers except Harold not telling the truth and saying they took the money over morals.

[Tim Martin]

Without taking a side in the PGA Tour/LIV imbroglio it’s clear that LIV had a very good showing at the Masters. Two of the top three finishers and three of the top six were from LIV. Twelve of the eighteen players in the field made the cut. I would think that a public relations/marketing blitz isn’t far off with those results as the headline. Something to the effect of “Who says these guys aren’t tournament tested?”

[Sean_A]

Without taking a side in the PGA Tour/LIV imbroglio it’s clear that LIV had a very good showing at the Masters. Two of the top three finishers and three of the top six were from LIV. Twelve of the eighteen players in the field made the cut. I would think that a public relations/marketing blitz isn’t far off with those results as the headline. Something to the effect of “Who says these guys aren’t tournament tested?”

I am not convinced LIV had much if anything to do with the Masters results. These guys were good before there was a LIV. However, I remain convinced that any world ranking system which ignores LIV players is a scam.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Scam isn't the word I'd use, after all the OWGR are up front about not giving ranking points for LIV tournaments. The description I'd give the ranking system is that it's deeply flawed.


Niall

[John Kavanaugh]

It’s spite. A flawed system is better than a happy Kingdom.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Without taking a side in the PGA Tour/LIV imbroglio it’s clear that LIV had a very good showing at the Masters. Two of the top three finishers and three of the top six were from LIV. Twelve of the eighteen players in the field made the cut. I would think that a public relations/marketing blitz isn’t far off with those results as the headline. Something to the effect of “Who says these guys aren’t tournament tested?”

But it is interesting that the guys that finished at the top (mickelson, Reed and Kopeka) didn't really need to do so as they still get into majors, at least for a few years.  The guys from LIV that really could have used a top 12 finish in the Masters to get invited back next year did not.  Players like Gooch, Ancer, Pereira, Kokrak, Niemann, Varner, etc. No LIV golfer earned their way into the 2024 Masters on the weekend. Niemann came closest at T16.

[Charlie Goerges]

Without taking a side in the PGA Tour/LIV imbroglio it’s clear that LIV had a very good showing at the Masters. Two of the top three finishers and three of the top six were from LIV. Twelve of the eighteen players in the field made the cut. I would think that a public relations/marketing blitz isn’t far off with those results as the headline. Something to the effect of “Who says these guys aren’t tournament tested?”

But it is interesting that the guys that finished at the top (mickelson, Reed and Kopeka) didn't really need to do so as they still get into majors, at least for a few years.  The guys from LIV that really could have used a top 12 finish in the Masters to get invited back next year did not.  Players like Gooch, Ancer, Pereira, Kokrak, Niemann, Varner, etc. No LIV golfer earned their way into the 2024 Masters on the weekend. Niemann came closest at T16.

Seconded.




Also, is nobody going to say it? Brooks was great... for 54 holes.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Also, is nobody going to say it? Brooks was great... for 54 holes.

Very true, but look at Old Man Phil.  He had the lowest score for the final round.

[Charlie Goerges]

Also, is nobody going to say it? Brooks was great... for 54 holes.

Very true, but look at Old Man Phil.  He had the lowest score for the final round.

He was also only good for 54 holes, just not in a row.

[PCCraig]

....Blackstone instead of the Saudi PIF.

Then the PGA Tour's consultants would advise them to repeat the "you shouldn't want to take that bad, dirty private equity money..." talking point so that Jay & all of his cronies can continue to protect their own best interests...

[Steve Lang]

   Blackstone??? I wonder what kind of ESG considerations they'd be pushing on the LIV investment decisions???


While the PGA Tour had 232 players with 2022 earnings of  $258,744,576 recorded,


there probably wouldn't be LIV Golf prize money standings totaling $304,162,697 for their 67 golfers:

1. Dustin Johnson
Events: 10
Earnings: $36,802,167*

*Johnson was awarded $18,000,000 for being crowned the 2022 LIV Golf Individual Champion

2. Branden Grace
Events: 10
Earnings: $19,131,332*

*Grace was awarded $8,000,000 for finishing second in the 2022 LIV Golf points list

3. Peter Uihlein
Events: 10
Earnings: $16,206,452*

*Uihlein was awarded $4,000,000 for finishing third in the 2022 LIV Golf points list

4. Patrick Reed
Events: 9
Earnings: $13,322,714

5. Talor Gooch
Events: 10
Earnings: $11,049,900

6. Pat Perez
Events: 9
Earnings: $9,653,900

7. Carlos Ortiz
Events: 9
Earnings: $9,053,647

8. Charles Howell III
Events: 8
Earnings: $8,720,333

9. Brooks Koepka
Events: 9
Earnings: $8,597,100

10. Cameron Smith
Events: 7
Earnings: $8,429,000

11. Charl Schwartzel
Events: 10
Earnings: $8,403,000

12. Eugenio Lopez-Chacarra
Events: 9
Earnings: $8,020,500

13. Sergio Garcia
Events: 10
Earnings: $7,715,786

14. Louis Oosthuizen
Events: 10
Earnings: $7,086,500

15. Paul Casey
Events: 8
Earnings: $6,506,367

16. Henrik Stenson
Events: 7
Earnings: $5,865,000

17. Abraham Ancer
Events: 9
Earnings: $5,595,500

18. Matthew Wolff
Events: 9
Earnings: $5,352,833

19. Anirban Lahiri
Events: 7
Earnings: $5,281,000

20. Joaquin Niemann
Events: 7
Earnings: $5,194,286

21. Chase Koepka
Events: 10
Earnings: $4,590,964

22. Bryson DeChambeau
Events: 9
Earnings: $4,555,750

23. Lee Westwood
Events: 10
Earnings: $4,535,914

24. Hennis Du Plessis
Events: 4
Earnings: $4,530,000

25. Jason Kokrak
Events: 8
Earnings: $4,319,500

26. Danny Lee
Events: 2
Earnings: $4,273,000

27. Matt Jones
Events: 10
Earnings: $4,241,700

28. Richard Bland
Events: 10
Earnings: $3,866,833

29. Sam Horsfield
Events: 10
Earnings: $3,884,000

30. Ian Poulter
Events: 10
Earnings: $3,556,333

31. Marc Leishman
Events: 7
Earnings: $3,475,400

32. Laurie Canter
Events: 10
Earnings: $3,184,950

33. Wade Ormsby
Events: 8
Earnings: $3,069,500

34. Graeme McDowell
Events: 10
Earnings: $2,912,381

35. Kevin Na
Events: 10
Earnings: $2,893,286

36. Sihwan Kim
Events: 9
Earnings: $2,747,000

37. Brendan Steele
Events: 2
Earnings: $2,445,833

38. James Piot
Events: 10
Earnings: $2,207,000

39. Phil Mickelson
Events: 10
Earnings: $2,137,350

40. Bernd Wiesberger
Events: 10
Earnings: $2,110,500

41. Scott Vincent
Events: 10
Earnings: $2,041,200

42. Martin Kaymer
Events: 8
Earnings: $1,911,800

43. Phachara Khongwatmai
Events: 8
Earnings: $1,858,333

44. Harold Varner III
Events: 7
Earnings: $1,778,500

45. Turk Pettit
Events: 8
Earnings: $1,691,000

46. Jediah Morgan
Events: 10
Earnings: $1,647,000

47. Cameron Tringale
Events: 7
Earnings: $1,545,600

48. Justin Harding
Events: 3
Earnings: $1,319,167

49. Sadom Kaewkanjana
Events: 8
Earnings: $1,312,286

50. Adrian Otaegui
Events: 4
Earnings: $1,294,500

51. Hudson Swafford
Events: 8
Earnings: $1,241,000

52. Jinichiro Kozuma
Events: 3
Earnings: $1,205,000

53. Shaun Norris
Events: 7
Earnings: $1,006,000

54. Shergo Al Kurdi
Events: 2
Earnings: $1,044,000

55. Mito Pereira
Events: 2
Earnings: $1,032,000

56. Sebastian Munoz
Events: 2
Earnings: $875,000

57. David Puig
Events: 5
Earnings: $849,600

58. Travis Smyth
Events: 3
Earnings: $846,000

59. Hideto Tanihara
Events: 5
Earnings: $752,600

60. Oliver Bekker
Events: 1
Earnings: $737,500

61. Ryosuke Kinoshita
Events: 3
Earnings: $624,000

62. Yuki Inamori
Events: 2
Earnings: $501,000

63. Dean Burmester
Events: 2
Earnings: $332,000

64. Ian Snyman
Events: 2
Earnings: $316,000

65. Pablo Larrazabal
Events: 1
Earnings: $315,000

66. Thomas Pieters
Events: 2
Earnings: $299,000

67. Blake Windred
Events: 2

Earnings: $263,000

[Jim Sherma]

It dawned on me that how the LIV guys played at the Masters was really besides the point. Of course some played well, LIV spent a Billion-plus to get some top players to take their money, they are professionals with a track record. Koepka was always accused of not taking the regular tour events that seriously when he was on the tour, not surprised he played well now that he's healthy.


None of this means that the LIV tour is any more viable however. I'm not sure that anyone doubted that the guys that received the most money from them were good players. In no way does this make me more interested in who wins a LIV event or what the team format even is let alone who is winning it. The reason that I never got excited for the old "silly-season" events never had to do with the fact that the guys that took the money to play in them weren't good players or that there wasn't a lot of money to be made. Rather, the formats and events never seemed important to either me or even to the players themselves.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

It dawned on me that how the LIV guys played at the Masters was really besides the point. Of course some played well, LIV spent a Billion-plus to get some top players to take their money, they are professionals with a track record. Koepka was always accused of not taking the regular tour events that seriously when he was on the tour, not surprised he played well now that he's healthy.

It also demonstrated that they managed to pick off a few top players, but the depth runs out pretty quickly. While they had 3 of the top 5 or whatever, they also had only 4 of the top 20 or so. And they have 48 players, with only 18 qualified. 11.5 were predicted to make the cut, and 12 did. Lee, Poulter, etc. weren't even there.