List of “fun” courses

[Mark_Fine]

designed with just one set of tees?

Someone asked on another thread, if I am unable to
design a fun course with just one set of tees? 

Fun is relative but my argument was that varying the starting distance for holes can have a lot to do with “fun” for most golfers. Even at my home club - Lehigh CC, when some tee markers are moved back to add variety for certain tournaments (or just for daily play), many members complain that the course was not fun and made too hard for them. 

Maybe some here can share a list of great golf courses that are fun and have just one starting location for each hole?   Thanks. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Are you really just asking for any course with just one set of tees (I can’t think of any for what it’s worth)?


Fun is a completely subjective word so shouldn’t be a differentiator.

[Mark_Fine]

Ally,
I can’t think of any courses with just one set of tees either (fun or not fun).  But a few were apparently wondering why we can’t build fun courses with just one set of tees??


I think even the 13 hole Par Three Preserve course at Bandon has a couple sets of tees. 

[Jim_Coleman]

   Pine Valley was for a long time - until Ernie Ransome got old. At least that’s what I recall.

[Mark_Fine]

Jim,
They may have only put out one set of tee markers at Pine Valley but there have always been multiple teeing locations for each hole.  It is one of the most fun courses anywhere 

[Tommy Williamsen]

For a while Pikewood had one set of tees, with a couple of exceptions, but unless you are long off the tee it was more challenge than fun.

[David_Tepper]

I thought I read somewhere that, aside from the Masters, AGNC plays from one set of tees for all the members & their guests.

[Thomas Dai]

designed with just one set of tees?

Someone asked on another thread, if I am unable to
design a fun course with just one set of tees? 

Fun is relative but my argument was that varying the starting distance for holes can have a lot to do with “fun” for most golfers. Even at my home club - Lehigh CC, when some tee markers are moved back to add variety for certain tournaments (or just for daily play), many members complain that the course was not fun and made too hard for them. 

Maybe some here can share a list of great golf courses that are fun and have just one starting location for each hole?   Thanks. 

Himalayas* at St Andrews (and other equivalents).
One starting point for each hole .... tick.
Fun .... tick.

The shorter the course the less the need for more than one starting point for each hole.
atb

* Aka Ladies Putting Club.

[Mark_Fine]

Thomas,
Great point about putting courses - most (not all) have one starting point for each hole.  There is a reason for that which doesn’t need explaining.  But not everyone for example wants to start to play the 17th hole at Baltusrol Lower from 663 yards.  Even though most could do it if they wanted, it might result in many waving a white flag of surrender    Not necessarily fun. 

[Tim Martin]

Cape Arundel GC has different sets of tees but I think you could go with one set and everyone would have fun. The Black tees or longest set measures 5881 with a par of 69. The greens are next level and as compelling as one could hope for.

[archie_struthers]

 


Jim as to PVGC the shorter tees implemented  during Mr Ransome's tenure were in deference to some of the older members he befriended. Clearly remember them being referred to as the "Shelly Tees"....


Warner Shelly had a home at the club and played into his nineties or close to it. He was quite a guy.


There have always been multiple tees going as far back as I can find

[Tom_Doak]

Garden City Golf Club only had one tee for each hole when I started consulting there in 1991.  [It helps a little that it is a men's only club.]  They did have a couple of holes with alternate tees, and a couple of the tees were very long from back to front, but it was a point of pride that everyone played from the same tee.  They did put two tee markers out, one at the back and one toward the front.  I have learned a ton about design from that course and how well it plays for golfers of all ages, thanks to the firmness of the approaches and the tilt of the greens.


Over the years we have added tees on a handful of holes where the 80-year-old guys were not able to make the carry anymore.  I hated breaking the rule of one tee per hole, and to be honest a lot of the old guys resisted for a while, too . . . but eventually they agreed it was better to take the advantage than not to be able to play anymore.


The course actually still would have worked fine for the older guys if they cut some of the rough between the tee and the start of the fairway, but the wild rough is another part of the club's tradition and they valued that more.

[Mark_Fine]

How many tees does a challenging but fun course like Sebonack GC have?  Tom Doak could comment better

Not every course can present an infinite variety of starting options for each hole like Sebonack does but allowing for variety not only to help accommodate different playing abilities but for the shear assortment of different looks and shot options can help make the game more fun.

The USGA is eventually going to come out with a study (they might have already published this) along the lines that for many (not all) forward tee players, the ideal total length of a typical par 70-72 course should be in the neighborhood of 3500 yards long.  That number will be eye opening for some.  At that length many (not all) players would have more fun and play much faster.  There is a lot of merit for most players to play it forward IF the course presents those options. 

[jeffwarne]

While quite possible for the majority of players, this becomes harder and harder as the scale increases for better players.
Palmetto from the white tees qualifies.
Aiken GC


Back in the day just about everybody played white tees
Back tees were for very few, and seniors also played whites.
They just accepted they would go out as they went in as kids, not expecting to reach many greens and having deft short games.
Nowadays seniors complain about a hole if they have to hit a wood into it...

[Tom_Doak]

How many tees does a challenging but fun course like Sebonack GC have?  Tom Doak could comment better

Nice job of ignoring the example from my previous post.

Sebonack has lots of tees, at the client's request, though we tried to disguise that by connecting different levels in turf. 

Mr. Nicklaus thought there should be fewer tees, actually . . . he thought if the back tees were 7400 yards that the next set should only be 6400, so people didn't play it from too far back.  But Mr. Pascucci did not agree with that.


Jeff is correct, that the reason there are so many tees now is that we pander to the better players' egos, instead of just making them play from 6400 yards, which would negate some of their advantage.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
I didn’t purposefully ignore your post about Garden City GC, I just didn’t have much to add to it.  I don’t know how large/long the original tees were there but it sounds like long enough that placing markers at the front vs at the back made a noticeable difference. 


RTJ’s runway tees for example might have been (one tee) but they could make the hole play dramatically different depending on what part you started from. 


I tend to agree with Pascucci; having 1000 yard difference between the back tee and the next one seems extreme.  I like the alternative you came up with much better. 


I happen to be a big believer in low profile low maintenance multiple tees/teeing areas. It spreads out play, adds variety, caters to different abilities, presents different looks/shots/challenges,…, the list of positives goes on. 


We set up/sometimes encourage 18 hole (even 7000+ yard courses) to play as 18 hole par three courses on certain times/days. It’s different and fun and adds another level of interest to a course.  Why not pander to golfers when the cost to do so can be minimal. 


I wonder how many Augusta National members would enjoy and have fun on their golf course if they were forced to play only from the back tees every time they teed it up?

[Mark_Fine]

We talk on this website at times about “half par holes”.  Many of us think this kind of hole is fun and exciting.  Probably one of the most famous that is getting a lot of attention right now is the 13th hole at Augusta National.  When an architect designs a half par hole (one with risk reward like the 13th), who is he or she designing that hole for?  Is it just for one kind of golfer?  If not, then don't you likely need multiple sets of tees to expand the number of golfers to address the architect’s design intent of a half par hole?   

[Jim_Coleman]

   For 75 years my course had two sets of “men’s” tees - 6350 and 6600.  In the ‘80’s it was decided that 6600 was not long enough for the modern game, so the back tees were lengthened to 6900 yards.  And for a couple of years we still had two sets of tees - 6350 and 6900.
   It was decided that that was too big a spread.  6900 was comfortable for the low single digit players, but 6350 was not enough “fun” for the 7-12 crowd. So the old 6600 yard course was re-offered.
Then the seniors wanted a tee shorter than 6350, so that was offered.
   The latest group being served are the majority of women whose handicaps exceed 25.  They are unhappy with the 5500 yard set of “women’s” tees that have been there for 90 years. So a new set of tees are being built that will probably come in around 5,000 yards, maybe less.
   Then, of course, there are the composite tees that fall somewhere between all these various sets of tees. And all of these many “courses” have been rated for handicap purposes and show up on the scorecard.  This has all been done in the name of “fun.”
    The theory is that people should be able to play whatever length is fun for them. I know the Cricket Club scorecard also offers several choices of tees and composite tees for the members to choose from. Isn’t this the new normal and an attempt to make the course more fun for the most number of people?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Again, everyone just assuming “fun” is directly related to length and/or the opposite of “challenge”.


If that is so, then use the word that way rather than always having this “fun = good” subtext. That is why I dislike the use of the word as a descriptor for golf courses.

[V. Kmetz]

RTJ’s runway tees for example might have been (one tee) but they could make the hole play dramatically different depending on what part you started from. 
...

I happen to be a big believer in low profile low maintenance multiple tees/teeing areas. It spreads out play, adds variety, caters to different abilities, presents different looks/shots/challenges,…, the list of positives goes on. 

Agree strongly and they are usually part of the fun of a course. These two "utilitarian" features of RTJ-influence/design (runway tees and multiple tees) are a very significant and prosperous influence for enjoyment of the game, features that hold meaning for the patrons who play a course frequently .


With every name architect either restoring a Top 300 classic, building a high end client destination resort or working with a Tour or governing body, the everyday particular virtues of a course that gets played 100x a year by its patrons, public or private, has been forgotten....and those virtues entirely given over to how they might measure up with a curated course, whether that activity be from design or applied to a historical standard.


This is the useful course...the course that grows up and around and past its imperfections of style, or artificiality or need to satisfy a $500-$1000 visit pp/round expenditure with equivalent experience...the one that most people play 80% of their rounds on...where the REAL SOUL of the GAME is discovered and nurtured.  It doesn't care what its CG score is and the only sustainability issue its in position to do anything about is really about how far and often to turn on a spigot.


On these courses, those runway and multiple tees conspiring with that other RTJ influence, the large segmented greens, join to make that course play joyfully different everyday...one shotters that can play 130 to a wicked pin on Saturday and 170 to a receptive pin Sunday are a pleasure for the frequent-player...a blue tee player encounters a downhill half par hole, reachable and eagle-able with a tailwind from 485 to an easy front pin, but a bear of a three shotter at 525 into that wind to the left side of the green.  The hole doesn't change, but its architecture displays its full range of features under such conditions and the big, changeable teeing grounds promote their enjoyment.


Two things with infinitesimal impact that are overstated all the time, especially when compared with their contribution to their raw facility:


1. Carts cause widespread and/or noteworthy, permanent turf compaction damage that can't be addressed by changing hotspot traffic patterns every few days.


2. That multiple or oversize runway tees add anything significant to maintenance expense, whether it be man-hours or equipment needs...or that some significant expense would be saved by eliminating or reducing those tees when balanced against the loss of the virtues...


2b and if the concern its property expansion to keep up with equipment-addled elite golf and golf courses, I suggest that is entirely an issue for the .01% courses already given over to hosting elite tournament  play.

[Jim_Kennedy]

A group of the ladies at our course regularly cross the border on Tuesdays to play a course in NYS. They like it, but they thought that there should be shorter tees for them, and they were going to tell the club that they should build some for them (and others). I explained to them that it probably wasn't a good idea to demand that if they wanted to keep their weekly tee times there. 


So before they went to play the following week I adjusted a scorecard from the club for them that added 6 strokes to par for the 18 holes. They were all smiles when they came for their Thursday morning group at our place, and I got a heaping plateful of homemade chocolate chip cookies as a 'reward'.


Fun is relative.

[Sean_A]

While quite possible for the majority of players, this becomes harder and harder as the scale increases for better players.
Palmetto from the white tees qualifies.
Aiken GC


Back in the day just about everybody played white tees
Back tees were for very few, and seniors also played whites.
They just accepted they would go out as they went in as kids, not expecting to reach many greens and having deft short games.
Nowadays seniors complain about a hole if they have to hit a wood into it...

I don't mind hitting woods into par 4s, but it can get out of control. I just played a course from the 6800 markers and didn't have a single iron into a par 4. Couldn't reach any bunkers from the tee. Loads of needlessly walking back tees. Had to driver on three short holes. This kind of thing hasn't happened to me since becoming proficient at the game. But then I rarely played 6800 yard courses when I hit the ball much further.

The next day was a bit better. Played 6500 tees at a different course and hit iron into two par 4s. Still a lot of walking back to tees and not reaching bunkers. Par 3s made more sense, only one driver which is fine. Ally doesn't like the descriptor, but this isn't nearly as fun as golf should be.

This is why I tend to avoid large group gatherings. Someone arbitrarily sets a tee of the day without much thought for the entire group. Let's see what silly tees are in store for me today.

Ciao

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom,
I didn’t purposefully ignore your post about Garden City GC, I just didn’t have much to add to it.  I don’t know how large/long the original tees were there but it sounds like long enough that placing markers at the front vs at the back made a noticeable difference. 


RTJ’s runway tees for example might have been (one tee) but they could make the hole play dramatically different depending on what part you started from. 


I tend to agree with Pascucci; having 1000 yard difference between the back tee and the next one seems extreme.  I like the alternative you came up with much better. 


I happen to be a big believer in low profile low maintenance multiple tees/teeing areas. It spreads out play, adds variety, caters to different abilities, presents different looks/shots/challenges,…, the list of positives goes on. 


We set up/sometimes encourage 18 hole (even 7000+ yard courses) to play as 18 hole par three courses on certain times/days. It’s different and fun and adds another level of interest to a course.  Why not pander to golfers when the cost to do so can be minimal. 


I wonder how many Augusta National members would enjoy and have fun on their golf course if they were forced to play only from the back tees every time they teed it up?

I don’t think many members would enjoy the back tee on #11. That seemed like no fun at all.

[Thomas Dai]

I don't mind hitting woods into par 4s, but it can get out of control. I just played a course from the 6800 markers and didn't have a single iron into a par 4. Couldn't reach any bunkers from the tee. Loads of needlessly walking back tees. Had to driver on three short holes. This kind of thing hasn't happened to me since becoming proficient at the game. But then I rarely played 6800 yard courses when I hit the ball much further.

The next day was a bit better. Played 6500 tees at a different course and hit iron into two par 4s. Still a lot of walking back to tees and not reaching bunkers. Par 3s made more sense, only one driver which is fine. Ally doesn't like the descriptor, but this isn't nearly as fun as golf should be.

This is why I tend to avoid large group gatherings. Someone arbitrarily sets a tee of the day without much thought for the entire group. Let's see what silly tees are in store for me today.

Ciao

Well said Sean.
And another thing .... longer courses and longer walks from green to next tee add minutes to a round which does nothing to enhance pace of play.
That'll do for now.
atb

[Mark_Fine]

Anyone here ever played “cross country” golf. We play it at our club sometimes when the course is empty or off season.  It is pure fun and throws all proper design principles out the window.  Golf was originally all about dealing with obstacles to eventually get your ball to the hole.  Multiple starting locations for golf holes can add much needed variety and interest and just more fun.  [/size][/color]