How much does location contribute to a course's reputation?

[Tommy Williamsen]

On the Jupiter Hills thread, I mentioned that it stood out because the course was built on a Florida hilly site. I mentioned it was a bit overrated and that it wouldn't garner as much praise if it were in the northeast.


Conversely, if Rolling Green were in the Baltimore/Washington DC area, it would be in the same class as Balto CC and Congressional. The same might be true of Beverly, which is in a tough market.


When I lived in DC, I belonged to the CC at Woodmore. I played it with out-of-town friends. One was from South Dakota, and the other was from Atlanta. The SD friend thought it was exceptional. The Atlanta friend said that Atlanta had at least a dozen better courses.


Shadow Creek is remarkable because of where it is. Where would it rank in New York?


So I wonder how much location has to do with a course's reputation.

[Thomas Dai]

Does location include scenic views?
Atb

[Charlie Goerges]

Does location include scenic views?
Atb

I think he's referring to geographic region here more so than off-course views. That said, no course in South Dakota is going to have views of the NYC skyline, so maybe they can be included in a certain sense?

[Jim_Coleman]

   I think it means a lot. I’ve heard that Cherry Hills would be just another Flynn in Philadelphia.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Does location include scenic views?
Atb

I hadn't thought of that, but it would be difficult to move Cypress Point to SD. I was thinking more; how does geographic location impact a reputation of a course?

[Joe_Tucholski]

A lot.  History and who plays the course also has a big impact.

[Marty Bonnar]

I don’t think the proximity to St Andrews has helped The Dukes, The Castle or the two courses at the Fairmont. On the other hand, Kingsbarns, Crail, maybe places like Elie and Anstruther have benefitted from their near association. A good golf course will always be a good golf course.
F.
PS Not sure where the hell I was going with that, but it seemed sensible in my fevered imagination.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm with Bonnar on this one.  I don't know how you'd even begin to measure that with so many variables and potential contradictory scenarios..

Would Pacific Grove be more highly esteemed if it didn't have any of its epic neighbors?  Would anyone even know about Torrey Pines or Sandpiper if they weren't located right next to the ocean?

Not sure how that could be quantitatively determined...

[Sean_A]

Tommy

Location matters to me. I like it when the courses I visit are in lovely towns and or settings. I tend to want to return to these courses. I tend to avoid places in crap towns unless I can hit and run with ease. I'm on holiday. Of course I don't want to cross an ocean for a week at Myrtle Beach strip malls or a golf resort. The golf is important, but so is the locale. Maybe I am an outlier in this regard, but I usually plan first as to where I want to go then find out if there are cool courses around. This is the entire reason I keep bucket list courses.

Ciao

[Jim_Coleman]

   Saying CPC wouldn’t be all that without its setting is like saying the Sistine Chapel wouldn’t be much but for the ceiling.

[Dan_Callahan]

I've always believed that if you could take an above average links course from Scotland or Ireland and ship it to anywhere in the US, it would immediately be a top 100 course in the world.

[Michael Morandi]

I don’t know, it now seems that being so remote as to require a private jet virtually locks in a course’s reputation.

[Keith Phillips]

I was a Loch Lomond member for several years.  Absolutely loved the place, in particular par 3s like 5 and 17.  These holes might appear quite pedestrian in another setting, but I think you need to evaluate courses 'en place'.  Of course Pebble Beach is advantaged by its stunning locale.  Of course, Jupiter Hills has added interest due to the novel (for southeast Florida) terrain.  I accept each course for what if offers, without penalizing or benefitting for better/worse natural environs.

[Brent Carlson]

Good question.  Location matters a great deal.  When I say location I also mean environment.  I want to see the local fauna and flora.  When I am in SoCal I want it to feel like SoCal.  Some courses do this well and some maintain their course like its New Jersey.  The uniqueness of the golfing landscape is so important.  I find sense of place is very high for the best courses.

[archie_struthers]

 


I guess it speaks to Pine Valley and Augusta’s golf courses as neither is surrounded by much beauty

[Mark Pearce]

I always believed that Goswick would have been better known and attract far more visitor play if it was a few miles further North and in East Lothian rather than Northumberland.  However, I heard a rumour as to green fee income last year, which suggests that their recent marketing activities are working wonders.....

[Niall C]

I guess it speaks to Pine Valley and Augusta’s golf courses as neither is surrounded by much beauty

Surely the beauty is within ?


Phew, that sounded quite poetic, I think I'll go and have a lie down.


Niall

[Niall C]

Mark


I think you are probably correct about Goswick although in terms of marketing, I wonder if the various golfing blogs and your own comments on here haven't raised it's profile more than any advertising. Question: if Goswick were in East Lothian, where would you rank it among the courses up there ?


Niall

[Niall C]

So I wonder how much location has to do with a course's reputation.

When I read this I immediately thought of the links courses north of Inverness. All lovely courses but collectively and individually they owe an awful lot to their relatively remote and rural location. To borrow Mark's idea of transplanting a course to East Lothian, what would there reputation be like if they were located there or even in the even more populated Ayrshire ?


Niall

[Joe_Tucholski]

Would Pacific Grove be more highly esteemed if it didn't have any of its epic neighbors? 

No, I think the opposite.  If it wasn't near Pebble it wouldn't be well known.  It gets a big bump as poor man's pebble.


I think there are a few types of courses where perception of quality is impacted by location.


1)  The highly regarded course in an area that doesn't have great golf (Good course but they are over rated because there isn't much else, it's exclusive and it has history)


2)  The value course near a big name course.  It's know because it's a value add on for a trip.  (Good course but lots of similar courses that very few folks talk about)


3)  The opposite of 1.  Courses that are good but are in areas that are past their peak.  In the US I think places in like OH or PA.  Surprising number of really good courses that aren't the very best but if they were somewhere else would be lauded.


Location certainly impacts the type of course.  Vacation spots get to charge a premium.  Tough to sustain a muni in a remote area.

[Mark Pearce]

Mark


I think you are probably correct about Goswick although in terms of marketing, I wonder if the various golfing blogs and your own comments on here haven't raised it's profile more than any advertising. Question: if Goswick were in East Lothian, where would you rank it among the courses up there ?


Niall

I have thought about that quite a lot.  It's clearly behind the "big 3" of Muirfield, NBWL and Renaissance.  But I think there's a very good argument that it's 4th.  I think it's better than Dunbar (though can see arguments both ways) and clearly better than anywhere else I have played in East Lothian.

[Paul Jones]

Tommy,


I think about this often when playing a course... and ask myself where would this course rank on Long Island?

[Tom_Doak]

I can tell you location has a *huge* effect on the rankings.


Some examples:


Swap out the 18 holes at Morfontaine for the 18 holes at St. George's Hill.  Is the Morfontaine course going to stand out in Surrey?  Is not St. George's Hill going to blow away everything in Europe?


Or, take my two best recent courses, Tara Iti and St. Patrick's.  Tara Iti was quickly rated #1 in New Zealand, whereas no matter how good St. Patrick's is, it won't be ranked ahead of Portrush or County Down or Ballybunion for a decade or more.  Now, if you swapped them and put St. Patrick's in NZ and Tara Iti in Ireland, do you think they'd be ranked the same?


There are so so many of these effects throughout the rankings that it makes them impossible.  And that's why I much prefer just calling the course a 7 or an 8 and leaving it at that.  Even in the Doak Scale there are small adjustments for location . . . sometimes I might rate the best of the 5's in one spot a 6, to state a preference, even though it might not hold up with all the 6's in Philadelphia.  Bias is inevitable.

[Sean_A]

Mark


I think you are probably correct about Goswick although in terms of marketing, I wonder if the various golfing blogs and your own comments on here haven't raised it's profile more than any advertising. Question: if Goswick were in East Lothian, where would you rank it among the courses up there ?


Niall

I have thought about that quite a lot.  It's clearly behind the "big 3" of Muirfield, NBWL and Renaissance.  But I think there's a very good argument that it's 4th.  I think it's better than Dunbar (though can see arguments both ways) and clearly better than anywhere else I have played in East Lothian.

Ya know, I think Goswick has a good shout at being #3 East Lothian. I am not convinced Renaissance is better.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Ya know, I think Goswick has a good shout at being #3 East Lothian. I am not convinced Renaissance is better.

I did wonder.  It's a long time since my one game at Renaissance and I thought it was really good.  But, as should be clear to anyone reading my ramblings here, I think Goswick is really good.  Interesting that you think there's a conversation to be had.