[JohnVDB]

This one has been replaced. Glaze Meadow, which is at Black Butte Resort in central Oregon. Double dogleg par 5, most likely played with fairway wood, mid-iron, mid-iron. 
Pretty sure John VDB is with me on this one. (He thought it was 6-i, 9-i,9-i).

Agree completely. I didn’t know it had been replaced, but any change would have to be an improvement.


Another that, while it isn’t a terrible hole, always bugged me is the first at Salishan on the Oregon Coast. It is the only forced carry on the course, making the resort golfer get that first ball in the air for a carry of a little over 100 yards. I saw a lot of first shots of the day dunked in there by nervous golfers.

[ward peyronnin]

I think we need to make the distinction between truly awful opening holes...and truly difficult ones.

Fairplay Kalen.  Although difficulty alone is not condemnable these holes can be made difficult by poor routing, empahasized features, unnecassarily penal choices; so often difficulty can be attributed to poor design execution and I reference again the no 1 hole at Old Stone.

[MCirba]

Anyone walking TPC Boston might have their thumb out hitchhiking before arriving at the distant first tee.


The hole itself isn't the worst but you find yourself wondering why the journey was necessary for mediocrity.

[Kalen Braley]

I think we need to make the distinction between truly awful opening holes...and truly difficult ones.

Fairplay Kalen.  Although difficulty alone is not condemnable these holes can be made difficult by poor routing, empahasized features, unnecassarily penal choices; so often difficulty can be attributed to poor design execution and I reference again the no 1 hole at Old Stone.

Agreed Ward,

Conceptually, I think most holes probably don't qualify as being truly awful, even if there is an over-abundance of mediocre ones.  I guess a claim could be made its a poor routing decision to have a difficult opener, but I would hope most of the time it was because the architect's hands were tied due to a non-negotiable location for the parking lot and clubhouse.

I'll be watching to see what else pops up and glad to see no one's played the CPC#1 card... yet! 

[Jordan Beasley]

Glad to see Tilden Park getting some play on the site; I live 5 minutes from the course.  Count me as one who likes the first hole, even though I think I've made par once in dozens of attempts. Tilden is flummoxing in that (IMO) not only are #1 and #2 the two hardest holes on the front nine, #10 and #11 are the two hardest holes on the back nine!


In my one visit, did I miss something redeeming about the first hole at Woking?  Especially in contrast to the greatness of 2 through 4, I remember it being kind of a nothing burger.

[Joe Bausch]

Despite an absolute bias towards the club and its history, the former 1st hole at Paramount CC was unquestionably abysmal.  It was so bad, we swapped nines and made it the current #10. It was easily the worst "opening handshake" I'd ever seen.


At 400yds this HCP 1 Par-4 tee shot crossed a busy Zukor Rd at 260yds and led to 50yd long fairway extension before turning straight uphill (30+% slope) to a blinded ample green severely tilted back-to-front. Tilly used this hole to get to the other side of the property and what is now a major N-S artery was once little more than a horse and buggy supply route. Even so, he must've been hitting the flask hard to conceive of this level of insanity & difficulty. Sadly, we have very few viable pin positions--all have to be on the back 1/4-- due to the green's serious slope and any shot, or putt, decently behind any of those pins runs the risk of 2x or 3x bogey easily!


I love Paramount for sure, yet have to nominate the old #1 as a truly, truly awful hole. Frankly, I hope to retire it one day, regrade the green and make it a practice putting green.

I love Paramount as well, and the first is maybe crummy.  But not truly, truly awful. Grin.

[Ben Stephens]

Southerndown's 1st is a Truly Awful walk uphill    its the steepest hole on the whole course.

[Ira Fishman]

I have posted before that our course—Kenwood in Maryland, not Ohio—has the worst opening hole I have played in my over 50 years of playing golf. It is a short (340 yards) Par 4. There is out of bounds all of the way up the right, and the fairway cants really hard left to right, particularly for tee shots that carry less than 225 yards. Of course, the logical play is the left side of the fairway except there is a row of trees just off the fairway with low, really low, limbs. To top things off for us mediocre players, there is a deeply seated irrigation pond left off of the tee which is not a very long carry but is visually intimidating for the first swing of the day. It gets a lot of action as does the 45 degree slope leading back up to the fairway which presents a blind punch back toward out of bounds.


And that is just the tee shot. The entire right side of the green is protected (blocked) by a large tree 20 yards of the green. Just behind the tree is a fairly deep bunker. So double hazards. The green is very interestingly contoured but it also cants hard left to right. Once again the logical play is left edge of the green. Except that there is a bunker just off of there which leaves a tricky lightening quick downhill shot.


The strong players hit their tee shot over the trees to the 18th fairway which if the shot gets further enough left is a good line but the wedge shot still plays to a downslope green. For us mortals, a high % of rounds start with a double bogey or worse.


Ira

[Tim Martin]

The strong players hit their tee shot over the trees to the 18th fairway which if the shot gets further enough left is a good line but the wedge shot still plays to a downslope green. For us mortals, a high % of rounds start with a double bogey or worse.

Ira

Ira-Whether you are playing for score or not the opening open double or worse is soul crushing. It’s a coin flip for me whether the big number on 1 or 18 is worse. If you are gambling obviously it’s worse on 18.

[Ira Fishman]

Tim,


I have not played for score or a wager in a very long time. Still plenty of doubles or worse on opening holes, but they were not truly awful from a design perspective. Not even a good architect can save me from bad shots, but at least they present a navigable challenge.


Ira

[Pete_Pittock]

This one has been replaced. Glaze Meadow, which is at Black Butte Resort in central Oregon. Double dogleg par 5, most likely played with fairway wood, mid-iron, mid-iron. 
Pretty sure John VDB is with me on this one. (He thought it was 6-i, 9-i,9-i).

Agree completely. I didn’t know it had been replaced, but any change would have to be an improvement.


Shortened to a par 4 by moving tees forward and right, new green site to left. Now a chicane rather than a hairpin. Lengthened 2nd hole to par 5. Renovation of the Bunny Mason course was done by John Fought.

[MCirba]

Despite an absolute bias towards the club and its history, the former 1st hole at Paramount CC was unquestionably abysmal.  It was so bad, we swapped nines and made it the current #10. It was easily the worst "opening handshake" I'd ever seen.


At 400yds this HCP 1 Par-4 tee shot crossed a busy Zukor Rd at 260yds and led to 50yd long fairway extension before turning straight uphill (30+% slope) to a blinded ample green severely tilted back-to-front. Tilly used this hole to get to the other side of the property and what is now a major N-S artery was once little more than a horse and buggy supply route. Even so, he must've been hitting the flask hard to conceive of this level of insanity & difficulty. Sadly, we have very few viable pin positions--all have to be on the back 1/4-- due to the green's serious slope and any shot, or putt, decently behind any of those pins runs the risk of 2x or 3x bogey easily!


I love Paramount for sure, yet have to nominate the old #1 as a truly, truly awful hole. Frankly, I hope to retire it one day, regrade the green and make it a practice putting green.

I love Paramount as well, and the first is maybe crummy.  But not truly, truly awful. Grin.

I actually LOVE the "slap in the face" of the original 1st hole at Paramount.   "I AM PARAMOUNT....FEAR ME", I think I heard Tilly whisper on the wind.   It was fair warning.

[John Foley]

Not a fan of water logged openers. Why do you need to risk me loosing a ball on the very first hole! I understand the challenge but I am a very firm believer of the gentle handshake openers. With that in mind for your consideration:


- The Judge @ RTJ Trail - beautiful view and understand the routing needs it to get you down to that part of the property but as an opener it's a bit much IMHO
- Grand Cypress - One of the original three 9's played dead into the rising sun w/ H2O all down the right side.

[Stewart Abramson]

Despite an absolute bias towards the club and its history, the former 1st hole at Paramount CC was unquestionably abysmal.  It was so bad, we swapped nines and made it the current #10. It was easily the worst "opening handshake" I'd ever seen.


At 400yds this HCP 1 Par-4 tee shot crossed a busy Zukor Rd at 260yds and led to 50yd long fairway extension before turning straight uphill (30+% slope) to a blinded ample green severely tilted back-to-front. Tilly used this hole to get to the other side of the property and what is now a major N-S artery was once little more than a horse and buggy supply route. Even so, he must've been hitting the flask hard to conceive of this level of insanity & difficulty. Sadly, we have very few viable pin positions--all have to be on the back 1/4-- due to the green's serious slope and any shot, or putt, decently behind any of those pins runs the risk of 2x or 3x bogey easily!


I love Paramount for sure, yet have to nominate the old #1 as a truly, truly awful hole. Frankly, I hope to retire it one day, regrade the green and make it a practice putting green.

Isn't it really the road that is bad rather than the design of the hole? If the road was closed and grassed over, or if the amount of traffic was as light as when the course was built, it wouldn't be a bad hole.

[JLahrman]

Glad to see Tilden Park getting some play on the site; I live 5 minutes from the course.  Count me as one who likes the first hole, even though I think I've made par once in dozens of attempts. Tilden is flummoxing in that (IMO) not only are #1 and #2 the two hardest holes on the front nine, #10 and #11 are the two hardest holes on the back nine!

I was not expecting Tilden to dominate this thread! I lived in the area for several years and played Tilden a handful of times. I actually thought the course had a lot of fun holes especially given the terrain challenges. But #1 isn't much fun and part of the problem is you drive right past it on the way in and get reminded of just how uphill it is. You get disappointed twice.

[Steve Lapper]

Despite the affinity shown by the twin apostles of Philly for #1 at Paramount, it is a rotten hole.


Even without the road, the ridiculous verticality of the second shot, the severity of the green, its distinct lack of pin positions, and its impossibility for recovery from behind it, all combine to make it awful. This century's traffic on Zukor Rd just adds liability to its insanity.

[Anthony Butler]

Despite an absolute bias towards the club and its history, the former 1st hole at Paramount CC was unquestionably abysmal.  It was so bad, we swapped nines and made it the current #10. It was easily the worst "opening handshake" I'd ever seen.


At 400yds this HCP 1 Par-4 tee shot crossed a busy Zukor Rd at 260yds and led to 50yd long fairway extension before turning straight uphill (30+% slope) to a blinded ample green severely tilted back-to-front. Tilly used this hole to get to the other side of the property and what is now a major N-S artery was once little more than a horse and buggy supply route. Even so, he must've been hitting the flask hard to conceive of this level of insanity & difficulty. Sadly, we have very few viable pin positions--all have to be on the back 1/4-- due to the green's serious slope and any shot, or putt, decently behind any of those pins runs the risk of 2x or 3x bogey easily!


I love Paramount for sure, yet have to nominate the old #1 as a truly, truly awful hole. Frankly, I hope to retire it one day, regrade the green and make it a practice putting green.

I love Paramount as well, and the first is maybe crummy.  But not truly, truly awful. Grin.

I actually LOVE the "slap in the face" of the original 1st hole at Paramount.   "I AM PARAMOUNT....FEAR ME", I think I heard Tilly whisper on the wind.   It was fair warning.

My first round at Paramount was with the Asst. Super just after the renovation was finished. I questioned the placement of the 1st hole with the through-road at Driving Distance. He has spent some time reviewing the original plans with Jim Urbina and mentioned the 'road' wasn't there... Certainly it was not a public, paved road at the time the course opened.

[Steve Lapper]

Despite an absolute bias towards the club and its history, the former 1st hole at Paramount CC was unquestionably abysmal.  It was so bad, we swapped nines and made it the current #10. It was easily the worst "opening handshake" I'd ever seen.


At 400yds this HCP 1 Par-4 tee shot crossed a busy Zukor Rd at 260yds and led to 50yd long fairway extension before turning straight uphill (30+% slope) to a blinded ample green severely tilted back-to-front. Tilly used this hole to get to the other side of the property and what is now a major N-S artery was once little more than a horse and buggy supply route. Even so, he must've been hitting the flask hard to conceive of this level of insanity & difficulty. Sadly, we have very few viable pin positions--all have to be on the back 1/4-- due to the green's serious slope and any shot, or putt, decently behind any of those pins runs the risk of 2x or 3x bogey easily!


I love Paramount for sure, yet have to nominate the old #1 as a truly, truly awful hole. Frankly, I hope to retire it one day, regrade the green and make it a practice putting green.

I love Paramount as well, and the first is maybe crummy.  But not truly, truly awful. Grin.

I actually LOVE the "slap in the face" of the original 1st hole at Paramount.   "I AM PARAMOUNT....FEAR ME", I think I heard Tilly whisper on the wind.   It was fair warning.

My first round at Paramount was with the Asst. Super just after the renovation was finished. I questioned the placement of the 1st hole with the through-road at Driving Distance. He has spent some time reviewing the original plans with Jim Urbina and mentioned the 'road' wasn't there... Certainly it was not a public, paved road at the time the course opened.

Anthony,


 You must've played with Matt Kerens. He's since become our head Super. Unfortunately, no "original" AWT plans exist or existed. We had both George Bahto and Phil Young do all the research possible before the restoration.


  The road was indeed there back in the day. It was originally a dirt road that served primarily as a horse & buggy supply road. Over the years, its turned into a major north-south automobile artery and the part that dissects 7 holes from the other 11 is a high speed arc.

[Eric LeFante]

Tuxedo, NY, RTJ Sr.


400 yards, uphill tee shot, dogleg left, the fairway narrows to 15 yards after the dogleg. If you lay back to the corner of the dogleg you can only hit it 230 and are left with a long second shot to a green that's been built up 15 feet. Miss the green right and your ball will hit the side hill and bounce into the woods, where it is not marked red (I know from experience). Hitting a provisional from the fairway on the first hole is NOT fun.

[James Brown]

I have posted before that our course—Kenwood in Maryland, not Ohio—has the worst opening hole I have played in my over 50 years of playing golf. It is a short (340 yards) Par 4. There is out of bounds all of the way up the right, and the fairway cants really hard left to right, particularly for tee shots that carry less than 225 yards. Of course, the logical play is the left side of the fairway except there is a row of trees just off the fairway with low, really low, limbs. To top things off for us mediocre players, there is a deeply seated irrigation pond left off of the tee which is not a very long carry but is visually intimidating for the first swing of the day. It gets a lot of action as does the 45 degree slope leading back up to the fairway which presents a blind punch back toward out of bounds.


And that is just the tee shot. The entire right side of the green is protected (blocked) by a large tree 20 yards of the green. Just behind the tree is a fairly deep bunker. So double hazards. The green is very interestingly contoured but it also cants hard left to right. Once again the logical play is left edge of the green. Except that there is a bunker just off of there which leaves a tricky lightening quick downhill shot.


The strong players hit their tee shot over the trees to the 18th fairway which if the shot gets further enough left is a good line but the wedge shot still plays to a downslope green. For us mortals, a high % of rounds start with a double bogey or worse.


Ira

Agree.  That hole is a disaster and the prevailing wind is from the left! 

[Kevin_Reilly]

Glad to see Tilden Park getting some play on the site; I live 5 minutes from the course.  Count me as one who likes the first hole, even though I think I've made par once in dozens of attempts. Tilden is flummoxing in that (IMO) not only are #1 and #2 the two hardest holes on the front nine, #10 and #11 are the two hardest holes on the back nine!

I was not expecting Tilden to dominate this thread! I lived in the area for several years and played Tilden a handful of times. I actually thought the course had a lot of fun holes especially given the terrain challenges. But #1 isn't much fun and part of the problem is you drive right past it on the way in and get reminded of just how uphill it is. You get disappointed twice.

Yeah, fun to see Tilden on here.  The problem with #1 is that it seems like you wait on the tee so long for the group in front of you, since it is such a struggle at the start.  The second shot is such a brute unless you are a strong player.


#2 never seemed like a brute, as long as you can hit a nice draw off the tee.


#11 is the site of one of my two HiO's so I am partial to it, even though it is an absolute brute from back tee.  I hit a three wood that somehow found the cup one day.


I miss Tilden...played it every nearly every Saturday morning with friends (first off the tee) for a 7-9 year stretch.

[Kalen Braley]

Tilden is certainly interesting in a few ways. 

Its one of the hardest courses I've played relative to its length ~5800 yards from whites, (6200 from the blues which I never tried). 3 of the par 3s play long at 209, 199, and 186 respectively in addition to the aforementioned par 4s. There are also several creeks/barrancas in play and a number of holes where lost ball protentional is very real.

As for hole 1 it plays at 404 from the whites, and is just shy of 100 feet of elevation gain (98 feet via Google Earth).  There is a 375 yard tee that doesn't show on the card, but given it adds an additional 10 feet of elevation gain, it ain't helping you much.

P.S.  However, after enduring 1 and 2, you then get to tee off the top of the ski slope back down to 3 green where I've had one of my all time longest drives (with an assist from the crossing road). 

[Jeff Segol]

Tilden is certainly interesting in a few ways. 

Its one of the hardest courses I've played relative to its length ~5800 yards from whites, (6200 from the blues which I never tried). 3 of the par 3s play long at 209, 199, and 186 respectively in addition to the aforementioned par 4s. There are also several creeks/barrancas in play and a number of holes where lost ball protentional is very real.

As for hole 1 it plays at 404 from the whites, and is just shy of 100 feet of elevation gain (98 feet via Google Earth).  There is a 375 yard tee that doesn't show on the card, but given it adds an additional 10 feet of elevation gain, it ain't helping you much.

P.S.  However, after enduring 1 and 2, you then get to tee off the top of the ski slope back down to 3 green where I've had one of my all time longest drives (with an assist from the crossing road). 

I nominated that hole because my understanding is that one of the theories of the first hole is that it should ease you into the round. There's obviously support for that from TOC, where the first fairway is so often described as "too wide to miss." This wouldn't be an issue if I, like most Americans, weren't so score focused, due to posting requirements and our faulty national character. Starting the round with a double-bogey just doesn't leave a good taste in the mouth.

[JLahrman]

I nominated that hole because my understanding is that one of the theories of the first hole is that it should ease you into the round. There's obviously support for that from TOC, where the first fairway is so often described as "too wide to miss." This wouldn't be an issue if I, like most Americans, weren't so score focused, due to posting requirements and our faulty national character. Starting the round with a double-bogey just doesn't leave a good taste in the mouth.

It does kind of ease you into the round in that it's probably one of the holes at Tilden where you are LEAST likely to lose a ball.


Which doesn't make it a good hole. I'm not sure #1 at Tilden could possibly have aspirations of becoming a good hole.


But you can just think of it as a par 5 if taking 6 is the problem. 400 yards straight uphill at 7 AM on a dewy morning has to play at least 500!

[Bob Montle]

Number 1 at Fraserburgh is a bland, straight, vanilla hole.
Especially when compared with 2-17.

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