[Charlie Goerges]

On the thread about Joe's article about Dick Wilson, Stewart posted a link to photos of a course of Wilson's in New York (NLE or soon to be). In it, there were 3 or 4 holes with blind tee shots. Now I like the use of blindness, it seems like an evergreen hazard, but a pet peeve of mine is when all of the blindness is "gotten out of the way" on the tee shots. I like it mixed in more personally, guard some greens with it, guard the second shots on par 5s with it etc. I'm curious what others think would be the best use of blindness and maybe give examples if you can. Or maybe blindness should be verboten in your opinion? What do youse all think?

[Tom Dunne]

Charlie, "positional" blindness is one way that works well for me. Ex. The original green at the 3rd at Yale (the famous "Double Punchbowl) was situated in a way where the brave line down the right (hugging the pond) would have a view of the flagstick (if not the green surface itself), while those who bailed out would have to play blind over the rocky ridge. When the green was moved to its current location everyone now plays their second blind regardless of position, and I think something was lost in that deal.


I'm sure there are a million examples of this kind of thing--this was just the one that came to mind first.

[Tom_Doak]

Charlie, "positional" blindness is one way that works well for me. Ex. The original green at the 3rd at Yale (the famous "Double Punchbowl) was situated in a way where the brave line down the right (hugging the pond) would have a view of the flagstick (if not the green surface itself), while those who bailed out would have to play blind over the rocky ridge. When the green was moved to its current location everyone now plays their second blind regardless of position, and I think something was lost in that deal.


I'm sure there are a million examples of this kind of thing--this was just the one that came to mind first.

This is my favorite as well . . . the approach is only blind if you didn't hit it to the right spot.  And the blindness is extra challenging because from the fairway to the green you can't get a good line to the hole, as you do with a post to hit over from the tee.


I don't mind the odd tee shot that's truly blind, but only when you're hitting over something impressive.

[Sean_A]

I agree with the Toms. I also agree with the idea of hitting over cool landforms.

A few other scenarios I am cool with include blind shots because the teeing area is close to the previous green. Unless it's a stupid shot, I don't want to walk a distance to tee off from another spot. A connected scenario is if an area is plenty wide that the blind shot doesn't really matter. Of course, too much of this gets old, but usually no more old than anything else.

Ciao

[JimB]

Charlie, "positional" blindness is one way that works well for me. Ex. The original green at the 3rd at Yale (the famous "Double Punchbowl) was situated in a way where the brave line down the right (hugging the pond) would have a view of the flagstick (if not the green surface itself), while those who bailed out would have to play blind over the rocky ridge. When the green was moved to its current location everyone now plays their second blind regardless of position, and I think something was lost in that deal.


I'm sure there are a million examples of this kind of thing--this was just the one that came to mind first.

This is my favorite as well . . . the approach is only blind if you didn't hit it to the right spot.  And the blindness is extra challenging because from the fairway to the green you can't get a good line to the hole, as you do with a post to hit over from the tee.


I don't mind the odd tee shot that's truly blind, but only when you're hitting over something impressive.

Your 11th at RCCC is one of my favorites.

[Tim Martin]

The “Alps” concept taken from 17 at Prestwick was used by Mac/Raynor in many of their designs. I’m a fan of intrigue as it pertains to golf design and would cite Yale 12, Fishers Island 4 and NGLA 3 as some wonderful examples. For those that don’t admire blindness on the drive the “Alps” delivers it on the approach. I purposely avoided the term “template” so as not to ruffle any feathers.

[MCirba]

Charlie, "positional" blindness is one way that works well for me. Ex. The original green at the 3rd at Yale (the famous "Double Punchbowl) was situated in a way where the brave line down the right (hugging the pond) would have a view of the flagstick (if not the green surface itself), while those who bailed out would have to play blind over the rocky ridge. When the green was moved to its current location everyone now plays their second blind regardless of position, and I think something was lost in that deal.


I'm sure there are a million examples of this kind of thing--this was just the one that came to mind first.

+1

[Tom_Doak]

Your 11th at RCCC is one of my favorites.

It's actually pretty similar in strategy to the 12th at Ballyneal, though I didn't really think about that until after we were done.  I guess at Ballyneal some guys can try to blow it past the drop-off on the right, where at Rock Creek you'd have to be really long to think about that.

[Ira Fishman]

Most probably would not agree, but I think a blind bunker on an approach shot can wreak havoc with one’s psyche. We just finished a quick 9 at Hope Valley. Number 7 is a short Par 4 with a mostly blind uphill approach. There is a very daunting and visible bunker guarding the right side, but there also is a blind bunker angling left to right along the left of the green. The green is wide, but even for good players, the positioning of the bunkers can lead to frustration.


And most probably would not agree, but I think that semi-blind uphill Par 3s can be really good holes. They concentrate the mind. And the discovery of where a well struck shot ends up is fun.


Ira

[Tim Martin]

And most probably would not agree, but I think that semi-blind uphill Par 3s can be really good holes. They concentrate the mind. And the discovery of where a well struck shot ends up is fun.


Ira

Ira-I agree on the uphill semi-blind par threes and Ross built some good ones. Shennecossett 4, The Orchards 7 and Irondequoit 4 all are good examples of same.

[Thomas Dai]

Blind shots can depend on how tall the player is and the height of the flag.
Part blindness can be effective, eg pitch shots over a slight rise where you can't see the bottom of the pin.
atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

There are loads of different kind of blind shots. I like / don’t mind them all in moderation. Some are better than others in the way they influence play.


The only blind shot I dislike is a fully blind one where the landing area is deceiving or narrow. i.e. one where you might lose a ball having hit the shot you meant to.

[mike_malone]

Klondike and Dell back to back show two interesting versions of blindness.

[Niall C]

I agree blindness is OK and perhaps desirable if it is a product of the natural landscape and having to fit in a routing. Indeed in the same way a par 3 can be used as a connector hole to traverse rough ground, a blind drive can be used to get over some natural landform as others have said, and can also give that pleasureable excitement of rushing to the top of a hill to see where the ball has landed (Darwin ?). I'm less keen on it for approach shots although I think I'd qualify that by defining blindness to mean totally blind and where the ball doesn't naturally collect towards the hole. I certainly don't like the thought of a blind 2nd shot at a par 5. Don't see the point of it.


Niall

[Charlie Goerges]

I certainly don't like the thought of a blind 2nd shot at a par 5.

I understand, but me, personally, I don't like the thought of any second shot on a par 5 already. I think an element of blindness could add some interest to the shot in the hands of a skilled and creative designer. I don't want to take the option out of their hands.

[Niall C]

Charlie


My issue with it is that the second shot could be played from anywhere whereas with a drive there is a fixed spot. I just think it would be harder to design a blind second shot when you don't know where it is being played from and with a single target to go for, unlike an approach shot to a green.


Niall

[Charlie Goerges]

Niall, I definitely don't want to see tons of blindness out there, I just don't want to take it out of the architect's toolbox. I specifically mentioned par 5 second shots because those are usually the most boring shots in the round for me, so I'd like to see them spiced up a little.

[Tim Martin]

Niall, I definitely don't want to see tons of blindness out there, I just don't want to take it out of the architect's toolbox. I specifically mentioned par 5 second shots because those are usually the most boring shots in the round for me, so I'd like to see them spiced up a little.

Charlie-The second shot on the par five home hole at Yale plays blind. It’s compelling to hit with no shortage of intrigue and calls for decision making instead of merely whacking away.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I like Tom Simpson's though about how a hole should either play easier or harder than you get from a first impression. 


The third at Woodhall Spa has a wide fairway- you can clearly see it from the second green. But in the tee with no line to pick out you become apprehensive...


Downhill holes where you can't see the fairway but has large bunkers...Are they in play???

[Gary Kurth]

Forced blindness is very frustrating for someone that is playing a course for the first and maybe only time.  It can quickly turn a good experience sour.  Does an architect consider the use of blindness more so on course that is mostly played by a membership versus a resort course that is mostly played by golfers that may only play the course once?

A good use of blindness is the short par 4, Hole 13 at the Quarry at Giants Ridge (resort course).  The first time player of the course can stand on the tee and see the entire hole; landing areas, hazards and the green surface.  If you choose to drive the ball as close as possible to the green and end up in the lower landing area, you might be able to still see the top of the flag.  That resulting blindness was the player's choice, but the player was able to see the entire hole at the tee.

[Tommy Williamsen]

The par five 18th hole at Four Streams uses blindness very well. If you can't get to the green on the blind second shot, it needs to hit to the right flirting with a small bunker. From there, you can see the green. Anything left will be a blind shot into the green.

[D_Malley]

Merion East has several examples of blind shots that are not from the tee. The amount of blindness is many times dictated by how far you hit your drive such as holes #1, #2, #10 where the long hitter may not have as blind of a 2nd shot. Then on hole #18 the longer hitter has a more blind shot then the shorter drive. Holes #4 and #14 are also examples of blind second shots, but distance off the tee does not effect either, although i guess these days the bomber could get a view of the green on #14.

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