St Patrick's...

[Adam Lawrence]

... is a new entry in the new Golf World Ireland rankings at number six, behind only the Irish big five.

Congratulations to all concerned.

[Ally Mcintosh]

What rankings are those, Adam? Is that Chris Bertram in UK Golf World? This one but updated? https://www.todays-golfer.com/courses/best/golf-courses-in-ireland/#25%20Connemara


Ally

[Adam Lawrence]

Yes

[Bill Healy]

St. Pat's deserves this honor.
Doak presents a fun challenging links with great interest on every hole.
Congrats to the Casey Family.
Bill Healy, MD

[Tom_Doak]

I wonder how long it will be, before we are allowed to crack the sacred top five?


Not that I am sure that the course deserves to . . . but it does seem like there is a glass ceiling there in either event.  If the course was in New Zealand, I wonder how it would be compared to Tara Iti.

[Ira Fishman]

I am always confused. The GW list has RCD, Portrush, Portmarnock, Waterville, and Ballybunion as the Top 5. My understanding was that Lahinch and not Waterville is in the Top 5. I actually like both Waterville and Lahinch (my favorite course period). But how can there be a Big/Sacred 5 if there is no agreement on which courses are on the list.


Ira


PS The Island Club is superior to Ballybunion and Waterville, but it is really a close call.

[Tim Martin]

I am always confused. The GW list has RCD, Portrush, Portmarnock, Waterville, and Ballybunion as the Top 5. My understanding was that Lahinch and not Waterville is in the Top 5. I actually like both Waterville and Lahinch (my favorite course period). But how can there be a Big/Sacred 5 if there is no agreement on which courses are on the list.


Ira


PS The Island Club is superior to Ballybunion and Waterville, but it is really a close call.

Ira--I thought the consensus was Lahinch instead of Portmarnock along with the other courses you referenced.

[Tom_Doak]

I am always confused. The GW list has RCD, Portrush, Portmarnock, Waterville, and Ballybunion as the Top 5. My understanding was that Lahinch and not Waterville is in the Top 5. I actually like both Waterville and Lahinch (my favorite course period). But how can there be a Big/Sacred 5 if there is no agreement on which courses are on the list.

Ira

PS The Island Club is superior to Ballybunion and Waterville, but it is really a close call.

Waterville is not in the Big 5, regardless of what someone's list might say. They are all much older than that.  In the age of rankings, Waterville and The European Club have challenged the consensus, but no course has actually broken through.  St. Patrick's is just the latest pretender and it will only be real news if it changes the narrative to a Big Six.  [It might have been rated ahead of Portmarnock in one ranking or another, but it would take years for that to be the consensus opinion.]

[Sean_A]

I think of the big 5 as Portrush, Ballybunion, Co Down, Lahinch & Portmarnock. Is this not the case? Although I think The Island and St Pat's are in that class.

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

The list that Ally provided in Reply #1 shows Waterville in the top 5, so i was bit confused as well.

https://www.todays-golfer.com/courses/best/golf-courses-in-ireland/#25%20Connemara

[Tom_Doak]

The list that Ally provided in Reply #1 shows Waterville in the top 5, so i was bit confused as well.

https://www.todays-golfer.com/courses/best/golf-courses-in-ireland/#25%20Connemara

Not just ahead of Lahinch, but also ahead of Ballybunion!  Ye gods . . .


But for some reason I have noticed that Irish golfers and publications do not like Ballybunion nearly as much as Americans do.

[Rob Marshall]

I think of the big 5 as Portrush, Ballybunion, Co Down, Lahinch & Portmarnock. Is this not the case? Although I think The Island and St Pat's are in that class.

Ciao

Is there a narrower hole anywhere than the par 4 on the Island with hazard right and dune left? I can’t remember the hole number.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I think of the big 5 as Portrush, Ballybunion, Co Down, Lahinch & Portmarnock. Is this not the case? Although I think The Island and St Pat's are in that class.

Ciao

Is there a narrower hole anywhere than the par 4 on the Island with hazard right and dune left? I can’t remember the hole number.

Pretty sure it is 14.

[David Jones]

When Chris Bertram from Golf World first went to St Patrick's he said he thought it would get into the top 3 one day and has recently said he still holds with that view.

Tom is right when he says that UK and Irish magazines have traditionally rated Ballybunion below the US raters.

Golf World is a UK publication and this list re-establishes the 'Big 5' there -

1. Royal County Down (No change)
2. Royal Portrush (No change)
3. Ballybunion (Up 2)
4. Portmarnock (Down 1)
5. Lahinch (Up 1)
6. St Patrick's (New Entry)
7. Waterville (Down 3)
8. The Island (Down 1)
9. Country Louth (Down 1)
10. Adare (Down 1)

Contrast that to the ranking in the 'Irish Golfer' publication from early 2022 -

1. Royal Portrush (no change)
2. Portmarnock (no change)
3. Royal County Down (up 1)
4. Lahinch (down 1)
5. Adare Manor (no change)
6. County Louth (no change)
7. Ballybunion (no change)
8. Tralee (no change)
9. St Patrick's (new entry)
10. Waterville (no change)

If you look at how Irish courses slotted into GOLF magazine's last rankings it goes -

1. Royal County Down (No change)
2. Royal Portrush (No change)
3. Ballybunion (No change)
4. Lahinch (No change)
5. Portmarnock (No change)
6. St Patrick's (New entry)

For what it's worth, I would have it in the top 5 already. Here's what I wrote about it last year if anyone is interested!

https://www.ukgolfguy.com/rosapenna-st-patrick-links

Incidentally, in the UK, Turnberry gets the opposite treatment to Ballybunion. It's consistently ranked in the top 2 or 3 in the UK magazines, always lower in GOLF. Purely supposition, but there may still be an issue there with some US raters not having seen the Ailsa post changes given the make-up of that GOLF panel. Or maybe they just don't like it as much.

[Sean_A]

When Chris Bertram from Golf World first went to St Patrick's he said he thought it would get into the top 3 one day and has recently said he still holds with that view.

Tom is right when he says that UK and Irish magazines have traditionally rated Ballybunion below the US raters.

Golf World is a UK publication and this list re-establishes the 'Big 5' there -

1. Royal County Down (No change)
2. Royal Portrush (No change)
3. Ballybunion (Up 2)
4. Portmarnock (Down 1)
5. Lahinch (Up 1)
6. St Patrick's (New Entry)
7. Waterville (Down 3)
8. The Island (Down 1)
9. Country Louth (Down 1)
10. Adare (Down 1)

Contrast that to the ranking in the 'Irish Golfer' publication from early 2022 -

1. Royal Portrush (no change)
2. Portmarnock (no change)
3. Royal County Down (up 1)
4. Lahinch (down 1)
5. Adare Manor (no change)
6. County Louth (no change)
7. Ballybunion (no change)
8. Tralee (no change)
9. St Patrick's (new entry)
10. Waterville (no change)

If you look at how Irish courses slotted into GOLF magazine's last rankings it goes -

1. Royal County Down (No change)
2. Royal Portrush (No change)
3. Ballybunion (No change)
4. Lahinch (No change)
5. Portmarnock (No change)
6. St Patrick's (New entry)

For what it's worth, I would have it in the top 5 already. Here's what I wrote about it last year if anyone is interested!

https://www.ukgolfguy.com/rosapenna-st-patrick-links

Incidentally, in the UK, Turnberry gets the opposite treatment to Ballybunion. It's consistently ranked in the top 2 or 3 in the UK magazines, always lower in GOLF. Purely supposition, but there may still be an issue there with some US raters not having seen the Ailsa post changes given the make-up of that GOLF panel. Or maybe they just don't like it as much.

Did Chris expound on why St Pat's isn't top 3 now? So far as I understand it, it's his list. What does Chris think will change?

Ciao

[David Jones]

Did Chris expound on why St Pat's isn't top 3 now? So far as I understand it, it's his list. What does Chris think will change?

Ciao



He didn't, although he has a panel in operation for his rankings rather than just being his list. Presentation only plays a small part in the Golf World lists but that may be a factor I guess, but I am guessing!

[Ally Mcintosh]

The “Big 5” in some ways is a construct of people on this website, including me.


In the Confidential Guide, Darius referred to the “Big 4” leaving out Portmarnock (because his taste is questionable).


Golf World UK - until this year - always had Waterville in there rather than Lahinch. Note Lahinch has only climbed other rankings in the last 10-20 years also.


Golf Monthly UK have The European in there.


I have made an argument in recent years that the “Big 5” could in fact be extended to include County Louth because it is that good. In fact, you will see in the new Irish Golfer rankings (to be released next week) that Baltray actually jumps a spot to No.5


Irish Golfer reflects closer to what I hear travelling around Ireland about the “best” courses. The anomalies to hit ‘n’ run international panelists do tend to be:


- Portrush and Portmarnock tend to be considered the two best courses in the country
- RCD and Ballybunion do not get considered as highly as international mags
- Co Louth gets considered higher


After that, things shake out in any which way they do.

[Sean Walsh]

Ally,


Glad County Louth gets some love. It really made an impression on me during my first Irish trip. The 14th sets the standard for how good a bunkerless hole can be.

[Sean_A]

Did Chris expound on why St Pat's isn't top 3 now? So far as I understand it, it's his list. What does Chris think will change?

Ciao


He didn't, although he has a panel in operation for his rankings rather than just being his list. Presentation only plays a small part in the Golf World lists but that may be a factor I guess, but I am guessing!

Oh. I was led to believe that Chris has panels, but only advisory. At the end of the day he calls the shots and presents the lists as he sees fit. Not the case?

Ciao

[Sean_A]

The “Big 5” in some ways is a construct of people on this website, including me.

I never heard of a big 5 until you wrote it a few years back. But when I heard it I immediately had 5 courses identified just from books and articles over the years, not rankings. It never entered my mind to include Waterville or Euro Club.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

The link that Ally highlighted above, ie - https://www.todays-golfer.com/courses/best/golf-courses-in-ireland/#25%20Connemara - was published in August 2021.



I believe the new listing, which David J has summarised to 'top' of, will hit the streets in the net few days. It's currently available to view on social media.


Listings like this are to me essentially indicative. Whether course 'A' is marginally better or worse than course 'Z' isn't the important thing. If they're in a 'top-100' or whatever listing they're likely to be pretty damn good and/or memorable and hence worth playing if the opportunity arises.


atb

[Adam Lawrence]

Irish Golfer reflects closer to what I hear travelling around Ireland about the “best” courses. The anomalies to hit ‘n’ run international panelists do tend to be:

- Portrush and Portmarnock tend to be considered the two best courses in the country
- RCD and Ballybunion do not get considered as highly as international mags
- Co Louth gets considered higher

After that, things shake out in any which way they do.

That’s because Ivan Morris hates RCD 😀

[Ally Mcintosh]

The “Big 5” in some ways is a construct of people on this website, including me.

I never heard of a big 5 until you wrote it a few years back. But when I heard it I immediately had 5 courses identified just from books and articles over the years, not rankings. It never entered my mind to include Waterville or Euro Club.

Ciao

Yes indeed. The “Big 5” are absolutely Portrush, Portmarnock, RCD, Ballybunion and Lahinch.


Adam, Ivan is not on the Irish Golfer panel. He is not the only one that rates RCD behind a few others.

[Tom Dunne]

The list that Ally provided in Reply #1 shows Waterville in the top 5, so i was bit confused as well.

https://www.todays-golfer.com/courses/best/golf-courses-in-ireland/#25%20Connemara

But for some reason I have noticed that Irish golfers and publications do not like Ballybunion nearly as much as Americans do.

I have a guess on that point. It seems the links that received the greatest boost in stateside name recognition from the work of HW Wind were Royal Dornoch and Ballybunion. Wind wrote at length about the Old course in 1971, and much of it involves Ballybee members stressing about how they might improve their links in order to draw a few of the overseas tourist bucks away from Portmarnock. With Wind it almost goes without saying it's a perceptive and highly enjoyable piece. NYer subscribers can find it in their archives, here:


https://archives.newyorker.com/newyorker/1971-04-10/flipbook/100/

[Tim Gallant]

I wonder how long it will be, before we are allowed to crack the sacred top five?


Not that I am sure that the course deserves to . . . but it does seem like there is a glass ceiling there in either event.  If the course was in New Zealand, I wonder how it would be compared to Tara Iti.

Look at Sand Hills - in 1999 it was rated the 31st best golf course in the States by Golf Digest, and 17th in the world by Golf Mag. Now it sits 10th in the States by Digest, and 10th in the world by Golf Mag.