How long 'til Torrey Pines falls in the ocean?

[Ken Moum]

Okay, that's not happening anytime soon. But the Black's Beach landslide is impressive.


https://petapixel.com/2023/01/25/photographer-captures-shocking-cliff-collapse-onto-beach/

[David_Tepper]

The bluffs above the beaches at the south end of San Francisco down into Pacifica are also vulnerable to collapsing. Several homes in Pacifica overlooking the beach have been lost in the last 20 years as the land under them has given way.

https://nypost.com/2016/02/11/their-homes-are-literally-falling-into-the-ocean/


This happened just last week:

https://www.ktvu.com/news/world-war-ii-military-structure-falls-on-to-bay-area-beach


The 3rd green in the par-3 Cliffs Course at the Olympic Club has twice been lost in the past 20 years to the land under it giving way. The Olympic Club gave up plans to turn the land west of Skyline Blvd from the current 9-hole par-3 course into 3 new holes for the Ocean Course as it was determined the long-term stability of the land was in question.


I wonder if the courses at Bandon are vulnerable?

 

[Matt_Cohn]

Okay, that's not happening anytime soon. But the Black's Beach landslide is impressive.


https://petapixel.com/2023/01/25/photographer-captures-shocking-cliff-collapse-onto-beach/

Whoa that was mesmerizing.

[Connor Lewis]

The bluffs above the beaches at the south end of San Francisco down into Pacifica are also vulnerable to collapsing. Several homes in Pacifica overlooking the beach have been lost in the last 20 years as the land under them has given way.

https://nypost.com/2016/02/11/their-homes-are-literally-falling-into-the-ocean/


This happened just last week:

https://www.ktvu.com/news/world-war-ii-military-structure-falls-on-to-bay-area-beach


The 3rd green in the par-3 Cliffs Course at the Olympic Club has twice been lost in the past 20 years to the land under it giving way. The Olympic Club gave up plans to turn the land west of Skyline Blvd from the current 9-hole par-3 course into 3 new holes for the Ocean Course as it was determined the long-term stability of the land was in question.


I wonder if the courses at Bandon are vulnerable?

If only I knew how to post photos from my phone on this page. I recently traveled down the cliffs of the Olympic Club to play what was left of the lost holes at OC. In short, nothing exists but what might have been.


That was a spiritual experience- even more so because I almost had a heart attack lugging my clubs back up that damn cliff!!!

[David_Tepper]

Connor -

Were you trying to play the holes from the "original version" of the Ocean Course (circa 1920's) or the 4 holes of the Ocean Course (west of Skyline Blvd. at the south end of the property) that were built (of the 6 holes planned) in the 1990's? Those 4 holes were not in play for more than a couple of years as the land under a large portion of that area gave way.

And I failed to mention that the 3 par-4 holes west of Skyline that were in play as part of the Ocean Course (when I joined the club in 1979) had to be abandoned in 1983 due to a landslide.


DT 

[Pete_Pittock]

The bluffs above the beaches at the south end of San Francisco down into Pacifica are also vulnerable to collapsing. Several homes in Pacifica overlooking the beach have been lost in the last 20 years as the land under them has given way.
https://nypost.com/2016/02/11/their-homes-are-literally-falling-into-the-ocean/
This happened just last week:
https://www.ktvu.com/news/world-war-ii-military-structure-falls-on-to-bay-area-beach
The 3rd green in the par-3 Cliffs Course at the Olympic Club has twice been lost in the past 20 years to the land under it giving way. The Olympic Club gave up plans to turn the land west of Skyline Blvd from the current 9-hole par-3 course into 3 new holes for the Ocean Course as it was determined the long-term stability of the land was in question.

I wonder if the courses at Bandon are vulnerable?


David,
     The composition of the ground is more susceptible for slides at Torrey Pines, but the course is further from the ocean. It seems only three holes would be affected. There have been a number of land-slumps and a sinkhole on the Oregon coast this winter.
Also more frequent surf and wave advisories. BD has 4,5,6,12,15,16,17 holes atop the cliffs. PD has 4,10,11,13. OM has a hole.
Sheep Ranch has 12 holes on the oceans, counting tees, greens and fairways.
      The predicted rise in sea level makes all the coastline more prone to erosion. The Cascade Subduction Zone has had 9.0 earthquakes, and the resultant tsunamis. This week has the 363rd anniversary of the last big one, and it is overdue.
      I'd say the Bandon Dunes resort is closer to the danger zone

[Connor Lewis]

Connor -

Were you trying to play the holes from the "original version" of the Ocean Course (circa 1920's) or the 4 holes of the Ocean Course (west of Skyline Blvd. at the south end of the property) that were built (of the 6 holes planned) in the 1990's? Those 4 holes were not in play for more than a couple of years as the land under a large portion of that area gave way.

And I failed to mention that the 3 par-4 holes west of Skyline that were in play as part of the Ocean Course (when I joined the club in 1979) had to be abandoned in 1983 due to a landslide.


DT

I played the land that slid toward the ocean- the abandoned property. It was a serious hike. Basically hit balls into oblivion and played to approximate green sites according to the images of the lost holes.


It wasn’t “real” golf is that’s what you mean, but that’s what made it a spiritual experience.

[David_Tepper]

Connor -


It's all "abandoned property!" I realize it was not "real" golf. I was just wondering if you were trying to play abandoned holes from the 1920's version of the course or the 1990's version of the course.


Yes, attempting to play any of those abandoned holes requires a serious hike.


DT 

[Jeff Schley]

The answer to the question is probably sooner than you think.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Maybe not so silly as you say...;-)


We lived in San Francisco during the "El Nino of 1998" when it rained for 26 straigtht days in February and the the 16th-18th holes of the Olympic Club's Ocean Course did indeed "fall into the ocean". Their par 3 course is there now.


From hazy recollection, I think the 18th hole of what is now Trump Whetever in Palos Verdes also fell into the sea just months after it opened.

[David Cronan]

Maybe not so silly as you say...;-)


We lived in San Francisco during the "El Nino of 1998" when it rained for 26 straigtht days in February and the the 16th-18th holes of the Olympic Club's Ocean Course did indeed "fall into the ocean". Their par 3 course is there now.


From hazy recollection, I think the 18th hole of what is now Trump Whetever in Palos Verdes also fell into the sea just months after it opened.

A funny story about the Trump course. I was invited to play there several years back. After our round the membership director hit me up like I was in a singles bar in the 80s. She handed me some collateral pieces about the club and when I got back to my hotel, after dinner and some work, I read the aforementioned material. LOTS of quotes about it being named "The Best Course in California" and "Top Ten Course in the World". Upon much closer inspection, in very small font, I saw that the source of these ratings was none other than Trump Magazine. It was pretty darn funny.

[Tim Gavrich]

"And if Torrey Pines South slides into the ocean
Like the mystics and statistics say it will
I predict the pro shop will be standing
Until I've paid my bill..."

[Scott Weersing]

Not soon enough.....


The course is only historic for who has won there and the hype. What course has a pond in front of the 18th green? And so on....

[Phil Burr]

Now that Scott has popped the cork, I'll echo his exact comment - NOT SOON ENOUGH.  Jim Nantz previewing the 18th hole yesterday as "one of the most difficult par 5s on tour" was laughable.


Gotta love Tim's ode to the late, great Warren Zevon, my favorite artist ever.  I appreciate the rework to the lyrics of "Desperadoes Under The Eaves", which I consider as Warren's greatest song.  Given the way many pros played #16 yesterday, I would add that "the sun was looking angry through the trees" behind the green.

[Jeff Schley]

Not soon enough.....


The course is only historic for who has won there and the hype. What course has a pond in front of the 18th green? And so on....

Scott,
The course only as an aside, is a PGA course 1 week a year and US Open venue 2 weeks in it's entire history. The entire rest of its existence, it is a year round municipal 36 hole facility, which serves the public. SD residents can play for a reasonable price and enjoy a great round of golf IMO.

To hold it up to Pebble Beach or other similar US Open venues, certainly it falls short.  However, that doesn't take away from the beauty that it is, which is certainly one of the best, if not the best, year round muni's in the country.

[Rob Marshall]

Never got the hatred for Torrey South. I liked it before and after the renovation.

[Matt_Cohn]

Never got the hatred for Torrey South. I liked it before and after the renovation.

I know what you mean, and I would certainly say that liking courses is a virtue; hating them isn't. TPS is an excellent test of golf at the highest level, or at least a test of execution. And it's very pretty, but any golf course built on that site would have been very pretty. I think of Ran's maxim that great courses are made of great holes. How many great holes does TPS have?

[Rich Thomas]

As long as it doesn't fall before April, Ill be ok with it. I will be taking my first trip around both the North and South courses with a few friends. That said, I don't think it has the architectural significance to be a great course. It is on my list of must play courses due to the history of the US Open and the great players who walked those grounds decades before. If an architect from today would have had the chance to build a course on that land, I would like to think there would be more use of the canyons as hazards, more width, and angles instead of tight fairways and greens guarded by bunkers left and right. Just looking at an aerial of the property, I can see some places where you could put some cape template holes. That is assuming however that you had a blank slate to work with. Given the setting of the place, it could have been something really special. That being said, I haven't played it and my opinion may change. Who knows?

[V. Kmetz]

Never got the hatred for Torrey South. I liked it before and after the renovation.

I know what you mean, and I would certainly say that liking courses is a virtue; hating them isn't. TPS is an excellent test of golf at the highest level, or at least a test of execution. And it's very pretty, but any golf course built on that site would have been very pretty. I think of Ran's maxim that great courses are made of great holes. How many great holes does TPS have?

Anybody's entitled to agree with it, but Ran's vague maxim is itself subject to the definition of great.  I'd say Torrey has 10 satisfying, wonderful, fun to play, fun to watch the pros play, memorable holes...3,4,6, 8, 11-14, 16 and 18.  On the other end, I've never been drawn to 2, 7, and 17 (which is unfortunate imo to have such a bland penultimate hole), leaving 1,5,9, 10 and 15 as sturdy, standard holes of the type I've seen many places (neither a vice or a virtue) and don't gain anything by visiting Torrey to see. 


I'll not restate my full utter defense of #18 and its artificial pond as making for a wonderful hole that I treasure and anticipate, and definitely instills that wonderful closing sense that you'd like to go and play some more when its complete.  It's a solvable but steeling puzzle for regular players and its doings make for a cliff hanger, tournament wrecker on the pro level...the green itself is maybe the most underrated marvel of any 18th green we regularly see.


And lastly for this bit, to amplify JS' remarks, it's a bustling, active jewel of a course for its community that can be accessed in a reasonably-priced, bullshit free manner by outsiders.  Plus there's a whole 'nother decent interesting course to play if you're getting jammed up.  Sure, its not the multi-multi-course utility of Pinehurst or Bethpage, but for goddsakes, why is this a commode for some on here...and have any of its critics even been there, no less play?  It's f'n gorgeous, inspiring, fun.


I'll be re-visiting Torrey before I plunk down hard-earned monies for things I've not yet visited, like Kiawah or Whistling Straits. 

[Kalen Braley]

As as TP detractor, I've never felt like its a "hate" thing, although for some it could be.

I think it comes down to 2 issues for most of us:

1)  We are tired of hearing over and over and over again of how its a great course.  I mean c'mon, its a DS 5 at best.  So lets just call it what it is, a long slog of a course, that sits atop ocean-side cliffs that does well to challenge the pros because of the aforementioned absurdly long playing distances, and juicy rough, all at sea level to boot.

2)  Given its $230 mon-thu, or $270 on weekend for out-of-towners, its a poor value just to get yourself beat to hell over a 5.5 to 6 hour round.  (Yes I can stipulate at the resident rates its a decent value for the locals).  For those same mid-$200 prices you can play a much better course in Chambers Bay, an actual great value, and also a muni last time I checked.

So yes its a great place to watch the pros go at it with terrific drone shots and all that, but just stop with the "Torrey is great" nonsense.

[Tim Leahy]

Torrey is a classic and proves it every year and every time it hosts a major. It was my home course for 2 years and I played the South almost every weekend afternoon and never had a 5.5 or 6 hr round. It is tough but fair and chases away the hacks that take 6 hrs to play golf. If people don't like it it's because their too cheap to fork out the high nonresident rate and want an excuse for not playing one of the great public courses in America.

[Rob Marshall]

As as TP detractor, I've never felt like its a "hate" thing, although for some it could be.

I think it comes down to 2 issues for most of us:

1)  We are tired of hearing over and over and over again of how its a great course.  I mean c'mon, its a DS 5 at best.  So lets just call it what it is, a long slog of a course, that sits atop ocean-side cliffs that does well to challenge the pros because of the aforementioned absurdly long playing distances, and juicy rough, all at sea level to boot.

2)  Given its $230 mon-thu, or $270 on weekend for out-of-towners, its a poor value just to get yourself beat to hell over a 5.5 to 6 hour round.  (Yes I can stipulate at the resident rates its a decent value for the locals).  For those same mid-$200 prices you can play a much better course in Chambers Bay, an actual great value, and also a muni last time I checked.

So yes its a great place to watch the pros go at it with terrific drone shots and all that, but just stop with the "Torrey is great" nonsense.

Why would price have anything to do with how good a golf course is? Wonder what the average cost per round is to a member at Augusta, Pine Valley or Cypress Point are?

[jeffwarne]

Torrey is a classic and proves it every year and every time it hosts a major. It was my home course for 2 years and I played the South almost every weekend afternoon and never had a 5.5 or 6 hr round. It is tough but fair and chases away the hacks that take 6 hrs to play golf. If people don't like it it's because their too cheap to fork out the high nonresident rate and want an excuse for not playing one of the great public courses in America.

I've always wanted to play Torrey.
I've stopped by twice when in the area to look around.
18 is an iconic hole on the PGA Tour, even if aesthetically not mine or a GCA preference.Many of the holes always look good to me on TV and the ones I've seen in person look good as well, as does the scenery.
Given the governing bodies lack of action on distance gains, the multiple 500 yard par 4's seem a valid Tour/major test at lest, and the rest of us can move forward.
I don't even know what great is anymore with the flavors always changing(there certainly can be "too much sand") but Torrey serves up good events and looks like a vibe I would prefer over Corporately run over priced resorts with stale overserviced formulas.


I've played Bethpage multiple times, both in competition and for "fun"-it isn't.
It certainly is not my favorite course on the property post 2002 US Open renovation and insistence on keeping the rough long and fairways so narrow that the bunkers are miles into the rough, leading to awful and frequent searches on every hole.
I do like the vibe though, and imagine TP would be similar with a bit less NY edge.
Perhaps if Torrey isn't much fun as well I can console myself looking out over the ocean.
As stated previously, I would pay full rate at TP long before I would ever return to Kiawah or WS(corporate golf on steroids punctuated by white jumpsuits), and if we want to talk value, I'll take TP over an overpriced successive series of 90 yard mat shots at The Cradle all day long....

[Tim Martin]

Torrey is a classic and proves it every year and every time it hosts a major. It was my home course for 2 years and I played the South almost every weekend afternoon and never had a 5.5 or 6 hr round. It is tough but fair and chases away the hacks that take 6 hrs to play golf. If people don't like it it's because their too cheap to fork out the high nonresident rate and want an excuse for not playing one of the great public courses in America.

I've always wanted to play Torrey.
I've stopped by twice when in the area to look around.
18 is a iconic hole on the PGA Tour, even if aesthetically not mine or a GCA preference.Many o the holes always look good to me on TV and the ones I've seen in person look good as well, as does the scenery.
I don't even know what great is anymore with the flavors always changing(there certainly can be "too much sand") but Torrey serves up good events and looks like a vibe I would prefer over Corporately run over priced resorts with stale overserviced formulas.


I've played Bethpage multiple times, both in competition and for "fun"-it isn't.
It certainly i not my favorite course on the property post 2002 renovation and insistence on keeping the rough long and fairways so narrow that the bunkers are miles into the rough.
I do like the vibe though, and imagine TP would be similar with a bit less NY edge.
Perhaps if Torrey isn't much fun as well I can console myself looking out over the ocean.
As stated previously, I would pay full rate at TP long before I would ever return to Kiawah or WS(corporate golf on steroids), and if we want to talk value, I'll take TP over an overpriced successive series of 90 yard mat shots at The Cradle all day long....

I wonder what the vibe is today out at Bethpage after the Empire State Building chose to light the building in green as a nod to its arch rival Eagles beating the Niners?! As a lifelong Giants fan blasphemy and sacrilege are the only two words that come to mind.

[Mike Schott]

TP South is at minimum at least to me, memorable. About 16 years ago I was in San Diego for a 3 day conference which allowed for plenty of free time for golf. It rained for 2 days straight and half of the third day but I was determined to get in a round. About 2 pm the rain quit and I was ready when the course reopened. Green fees were $50.00 back then! I was nearly alone on the course. I still remember many of the holes with 3, 4, 11, 13 and of course 18 being the most memorable. It's far from a great course but I had a great time.


As Bethpage Black has been mentioned, I played in the mid-1990's before the renovation. It was a cow pasture but the bones were there. Have stronger memories of it than Torrey Pines South. The elevated greens, bunkering and topography make it a great layout. I think it would kill me now.