A list that will really have you scratching your heads

[hpembroke]

If you guys are worried about the current GD Best New list, take a look at this list that www.lowerscoregolf.com has on its website for Oregon.

Top Ten Public golf courses in Oregon

These ratings are made by regular golfers, based on the following criteria: visual appeal, challenge level, course conditioning, service, and Golf Digest ratings. These ratings are out of a possible 20.

1. Bandon Dunes, Bandon (19.6)

2. Sandpines, Florence (19.4)

3. Sunriver (Crosswater), Bend (19.2)

4. Pacific Dunes, Bandon (19.2)

5. Pumpkin Ridge (Ghost Creek), Cornelius (19.2)

6. Heron Lakes (Great Blue), Portland (19.0)

7. Reserve-Fought, Aloha (19.0)

8. Tokatee, Blue River (18.5)

9. Woodlands, Sun River (18.2)

10. Lost Tracks G.C., Bend (18.0)

http://www.lowerscoregolf.com/oregon.htm

There are more states to scratch your heads about on the left side of the website.
 

[Matthew Schulte]

"These ratings are made by regular golfers, based on the following criteria: visual appeal, challenge level, course conditioning, service, and Golf Digest ratings. These ratings are out of a possible 20."

There you have it!  This is the opinion of Joe 6 Pack golfer! UNBELIEVABLE!!  I guess the good news is the masses will continue to flock to Sandpines instead of Pacific Dunes

Sandpines offers more visual appeal than Pac Dunes?!!  

Notice things like strategy are absent from their criteria!  Apparently that is not even a factor in measuring good architecture!

[JohnV]

No doubt they are screwed up.  Everyone knows that Ted Robinson's masterpiece - Tokatee is way better than Rees Jones' - Sandpines.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I do hope they go to Sand Pines. OMG how could anyone put that course ahead of pacific Dunes or anyone other the other 10 is beyond me.

[JLahrman]

This is Golf Digest ranking these courses, not this little website for golf architecture dorks.  Their target audience IS Joe Six Pack Golfer, hence the rankings are done for them.  Go see what coffee afficionadoes think about Starbucks.  It ain't a big deal.

[Mick]

"Joe 6 pack golfer" - classic.  By this I assume you are talking of the majority of golfers who play the game.  Surely, you don't mean to imply that those out there to play a little golf and enjoy themselves are idiots because they don't consider the architectural merits of the course they are playing.  Ok, so you may not agree with the approach to golf as a leisure activity rather than a serious sporting endeavor but dismissing their collective opinion on courses smacks of arrogance. The simple fact is the majority of golfers do not care about startegy because we are more worried about not slicing our ball 60 yards into the junk than hitting a crisp drive up the right side to catch the slope and thus have a favourable approach to the flag of the day.  So what if we enjoy courses that in your opinion emphazie asthetics over strategy.  As long as its fun, playable, and reasonably priced and we can enjoy a beer or two in a relaxed atmosphere, we're happy.

Ranting Joe "six pack or perhaps a case" golfer

[Mike Benham]

Take a look at their "Mental Scoring System" ...

Tiger scores a 5 (the maximum) on VI ... "Visual Imagination" ... I wonder if, after he has his wedding night foray with Elin, that this score goes down?  I mean, after the wedding night, what else is there to imagine ...

[Tommy_Naccarato]

John V,
I thought Trysting Tree was the Ted Robinson masterpiece?

I have played 6 of the 10. So I feel qualified to rate the Top 10.

 1.Pacific Dunes
 2.Pacific Dunes
 3.Pacific Dunes
 4.Pacific Dunes
 5.Astoria G & CC
 6.Bandon Dunes
 7.Salishan Beach
 8.Ocean Dunes
 9.Eastmoreland
10.(tie) Reserve-Fought and Pumpkin Pie Ghost Creek

I'm leaving Waverly, Portland Golf Club and Sandelee off this list because I just want too, even though they finish eons ahead of Sandpines and Heron Lakes Great Blue.

[Michael Dugger]

Tommy,

You are killing me my friend.  I just can't get on board with you on this one.  

I don't get why you rip on Heron Lakes Great Blue.  Granted it's not the second coming of Pac or Bandon but it stomps a mud hole on Eastmoreland.  The front nine at Eastmoreland is plain, dull and boring tree lined golf.  The greens offer little excitement or challenge.  The bunker work reminds me of what we've been seeing of Rulewich at Yale.  It's just not that great of a course in the present era.  Maybe Egan's original design of 75 years ago, but not today.

Ocean Dunes?  Really?  I know that it is the course that we all wish Sandpines was but the place is severly hindered by it's lack of width, space and length.  I can't wholeheartedly endorse the "soulless" Pumpkin Ridge Ghost Creek, but surely it must rival Ocean Dunes as far as a golf experience goes.

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

JohnV,

I liked Tokatee.

I thought it had the potential to become a really good golf course with some fine tuning.

I also spoke to a good number of golfers who traveled a good distance to play there, when I was there.

They all like the course as well, having traveled from Portland and other distant cities to play it, and not for the first time either.

It certainly isn't easy to get to, so something must be attracting golfers.

[TEPaul]

Lists!?

Yuk! I say send Matt Ward to Oregon, he'll figure it out--he definitely has the New Jersey list all figured out!    

[Matt_Ward]

TEPaul:

Appreciaite the plug but I'm still having a hard time with fairway widths that are a bit tooooooo narrow for my tastes.  

By the way Oregon public golf is certainly a cut above what you find in the Garden State IMHO. Even when you factor in Sandpines.

[Norbert P]

 The more ranking lists I look at the more worthless I find them.  They are interesting but their only function, for me, is to strengthen my own belief in unmentioned golf courses, artists, musicians, movies, books, etc.  

  Go to www.LowerScoreGolf.com  and check out some other states that you may be familiar with.  Arizona doesn't have a couple that we adore here.  

 "Like Cool Hand Luke, Im bustin' rocks !
  Spend a night in the box! ...a night in the box!"
    Reverend Horton Heat

Tommy N, I have to agree with Michael about Eastmoreland being less interesting than Great Blue.  I'd give my own list but that would be a bit hypocritical.  BTW... When Torrey Pines South gets kicked off the (or any 'Best') list, I might  pay attention.  

[Matthew Schulte]

Mick:

You can't really be suggesting that you think the hallowed fairways of Sandpines offer more visual appeal than those of Pacific Dunes?

You are exactly right that the masses are "Joe 6 pack golfer."  Thank God they aren't all golf architecture geeks like us.  

If you have played the top four courses on the list and agree with the "masses" opinion I am very interested in hearing your rationale.  Even for our dear friend "Joe 6 pack" I am surprised that they wouldn't be far more blown away by both  Bandon and Pacific.  

So yes, I suppose I do dismiss their collective opinion as being something I put any stock in if they are basing their opinion on service, visual appeal, and course conditioning over the strategic merits of the courses holes.  Idiots...no!  Just not opinions I value.  Fair enough?

[JohnV]

Pat, I've always enjoyed Tokatee, that comment was for Mr. Naccarato and it got the desired response.

Tommy, this is public courses therefore Astoria, Portland and Waverly don't count.

My personal top 10 from Oregon would be:

1) Pacific Dunes
2) Bandon Dunes
3) Ghost Creek
4) Crosswater
5) Eagle Point
6) Tokatee
7) Fought - Reserve
Eastmoreland
9) Salishan ( before they screw it up with the current redesign)
10) Sunriver - Woodlands

The last nine built at Heron Lakes Great Blue is good, but I never have liked the first 9 that was built there.

[peter_p]

Salishan is currently closed until next summer, and according to the Cybergolf flak piece it will have Pine Valley qualities.
What I can't figure out is how 15 (a 35 degree uphill short iron) will change into downhill hole

[Dan Grossman]

Tommy -

I think you have Astoria G&CC rated a little high.  While I thought the dunes were neat, there are a LOT of golf courses in Oregon that should be ranked higher.  Bandon, Waverly, Portland, Columbia-Edgewater, Witch Hollow to name a few.  

[peter_p]

Why is Astoria on the list? It's private, the survey is on public courses. Salishan probably got 3 points on the view from the doublewide "clubhouse" view, which is pure bait and switch

[JohnV]

Salishan was a true tough test, but from what I've heard from a friend who is/was a member, they are going to tone down the green which will take a lot of the fire and fun out of it.  I've also heard that they are converting #14 to a par 4 with a new green and 15 will play downhill to the old 14th green.

[Dan Herrmann]

The original list was for public courses.

And they ranked visual appeal highly.

Why, then, isn't Elkhorn on the list?  Visually, it's up there with Bandon/Pacific in terms of beauty and certainly as good as if not better (visually) than Tokatee.

And, yep - I like Heron Lakes too!

Portland may have the best muni courses in the entire country!

[Mark_Fine]

Few lists surprise me anymore.  I was with a Pine Valley member not too long ago and he likes what I would classify as an average Fazio course much better.  Maybe the fun factor is more important to some than the architecture itself.  Remember, a lot of people judge golf courses based on their own game.  

[A_Clay_Man]

Doing my best to not start a new thread, I did a search for Eastmoreland and I've picked on this quote to highlight.

I don't get why you rip on Heron Lakes Great Blue.  Granted it's not the second coming of Pac or Bandon but it stomps a mud hole on Eastmoreland.  The front nine at Eastmoreland is plain, dull and boring tree lined golf.  The greens offer little excitement or challenge.  The bunker work reminds me of what we've been seeing of Rulewich at Yale.  It's just not that great of a course in the present era.  Maybe Egan's original design of 75 years ago, but not today.

Having had no exposure to Egan, other than Pebble Beach, I tempered my expectations.

The above quote is inaccurate to say thatthe front nine is boring. Yes, the first few holes start you out with nothing too flashy, but begining on the fourth hole my eyes lit up from the uniqueness of the gca.

The course had a flow that was certainly palpable and one has a harder time appreciating that kind of flow, if the course starts to wow, from the get go.


We saw the course in less than average conditions, but the design still peeks out from behind all those trees and thick redundant rough.

I loved the place, especially the fairway movement and variety. One of the countries finest publics is not an over-statement.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mathew Schulte,

"These ratings are made by regular golfers....

This is the opinion of Joe 6 Pack golfer!
UNBELIEVABLE!!  
I guess the good news is the masses will continue to flock to Sandpines instead of Pacific Dunes

You're implying that there's the self annointed elite of Golfclubatlas.com, of which you're one, and that all of the other golfers should be categorized as "Joe 6 pack" ?

How objective, how convenient.

What do those regular golfers know about anything, anyway ?
 
[/color]

[peter_p]

Adam,
Michael Dugger was certainly right about tree lined front nine.
They could certainly axe half of the conifers and still have a challenging course. Seems to me they gang planted in the 70s
and never cleared up overage. If they were looking to protect adjoining fairways they certainly succeeded.
Yours,
Hack, hack, whiff

PS Here is a link to the current ranking. http://lowerscoregolf.com/oregon.htm
Sandpines has dropped to a 5th place tie with Heron Lakes and Eastmoreland has dropped from the top 10 but is still honorable mention.

[John Kirk]

It's true I'm a member at Pumpkin Ridge, but there's no way the Great Blue course is a more enjoyable place to play than Ghost Creek, which I like just as much as the private Witch Hollow course.  Ghost Creek's course conditioning has been sub-par at times during the past few years.  Perhaps that is a factor.

Tommy N. -  If you're going to make Pac Dunes the four best courses in Oregon, Bandon Dunes should be the 5th and 6th best courses.  Those two dwarf the competition.

Michael D. -  I think Ghost Creek has measurable "soul".  At least as much soul as, say, the Average White Band.

Assuming only one spot per course on the list, I agree with my friend John Vander Borght's list.