News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Become a GCA By School of Hard-Knocks?
« Reply #50 on: January 05, 2023, 06:49:19 PM »
To say that the creative aspect of life has passed him by is ageist by definition.
I've not seen anyone say (or write) that.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Become a GCA By School of Hard-Knocks?
« Reply #51 on: January 05, 2023, 08:46:44 PM »
The good dentist is only 41. He’ll make his nut by 50. To say that the creative aspect of life has passed him by is ageist by definition.


Even the grounded grouch admitted it’s possible with enough money and patience. Why is a professional golfer so much mor qualified than a dentist? Age is the only “excuse” I’ve seen given.
It is not age. It is experience.
Tim Weiman

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Become a GCA By School of Hard-Knocks?
« Reply #52 on: January 05, 2023, 09:13:48 PM »
He’ll still be in his 60’s in 2050. There is time for experience.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Become a GCA By School of Hard-Knocks?
« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2023, 02:27:57 AM »
John is right.


Way too much”GCA is a black art” type stuff on this thread. Of course experience is necessary but the first thing that is important is a natural intuition for it. I’ve seen very few people succeed who didn’t come to it already armed with a sense of scale, topography, routing and shapes. The second thing necessary is out and out desire to do the job.


GCA is only “difficult” compared to other professions or arts because it’s so niche and there are far fewer jobs than people wanting to participate.


For what it’s worth, I got involved in my thirties. Because of my age, maturity and experience in another profession, it enabled me to carve out my own path at least partially on my own terms. If I had gone straight in 15 years earlier, I would have started as some office jockey for an architect whose philosophy I probably didn’t agree with but who shaped my thoughts.


That’s the main difference between now and then: The youngsters are getting shaped by experience in the field rather than drawing details.


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Become a GCA By School of Hard-Knocks?
« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2023, 07:38:08 AM »
Ally,


So true, your first pp.  When I used to hire folks, I always told them they would be evaluated over 6 months for permanent hire.  Truthfully, I could usually tell within a few weeks whether they had that "designer's sense."  At least, when we were busy, as we were lucky to be most of the late 1980's-2006 or so, which was probably the last time I actually had full time staff.



Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Become a GCA By School of Hard-Knocks?
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2023, 07:51:08 AM »
Funnily enough, I was 41 (twenty years ago) when I jacked-in a perfectly decent career (and salary) to go back to Uni to do the MSc golf architecture programme.
Three years later, and with a few small jobs done and a couple of trips to China, (where we thought the big bucks could be made!), I realised I was never going to make enough money at this lark to pay the mortgage and went back to full-on landscape design, project management and leading teams of other professionals.
I’m not sure how many of the folks who went through the same programme are still in the business, but it ain’t many.
Cheers,
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Become a GCA By School of Hard-Knocks?
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2023, 08:37:47 AM »

So true, your first pp.  When I used to hire folks, I always told them they would be evaluated over 6 months for permanent hire.  Truthfully, I could usually tell within a few weeks whether they had that "designer's sense."  At least, when we were busy, as we were lucky to be most of the late 1980's-2006 or so, which was probably the last time I actually had full time staff.




Ugh, not you [and Ally, too?].  It's pure ego to think that you born with some "designer gene", and the other 99% of the world was not.  It's all a continuum, and while some people are going to design more interesting courses than others, it's not anyone's birthright.


To me, what makes someone better at design is understanding how all of the technical parts play their role, so you can design great holes that incorporate those details in a way no one even notices.  By that logic, the more experience you have building golf courses, the better you're going to be at design.  Someone with talent as a shaper or experience as a "construction guy" has a leg up on everyone else, all other things being equal.


Peter's thought of volunteering to work for free [an offer I've probably had 20-30 times from others] is a "tell" for me.  I am happy to pay good money to people who want to help build my courses and make them better.  That's what we are all out there to do, and you learn a lot by doing it.  But I'm not there for anyone who wants to stand off to the side and have me teach them, and he'll have a very hard time finding other people who want to help him if that's the attitude. 


The person with the right attitude will never mention the money at all, and trust that they will make a contribution and get paid fairly for it.  And really, you have to have that kind of faith to make it in a business where you never know where your next client is coming from.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Become a GCA By School of Hard-Knocks?
« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2023, 09:40:59 AM »

So true, your first pp.  When I used to hire folks, I always told them they would be evaluated over 6 months for permanent hire.  Truthfully, I could usually tell within a few weeks whether they had that "designer's sense."  At least, when we were busy, as we were lucky to be most of the late 1980's-2006 or so, which was probably the last time I actually had full time staff.




Ugh, not you [and Ally, too?].  It's pure ego to think that you born with some "designer gene", and the other 99% of the world was not.  It's all a continuum, and while some people are going to design more interesting courses than others, it's not anyone's birthright.


To me, what makes someone better at design is understanding how all of the technical parts play their role, so you can design great holes that incorporate those details in a way no one even notices.  By that logic, the more experience you have building golf courses, the better you're going to be at design.  Someone with talent as a shaper or experience as a "construction guy" has a leg up on everyone else, all other things being equal.


Peter's thought of volunteering to work for free [an offer I've probably had 20-30 times from others] is a "tell" for me.  I am happy to pay good money to people who want to help build my courses and make them better.  That's what we are all out there to do, and you learn a lot by doing it.  But I'm not there for anyone who wants to stand off to the side and have me teach them, and he'll have a very hard time finding other people who want to help him if that's the attitude. 


The person with the right attitude will never mention the money at all, and trust that they will make a contribution and get paid fairly for it.  And really, you have to have that kind of faith to make it in a business where you never know where your next client is coming from.


Nah, Tom,


I’ve seen more than a couple of people where you know immediately it ain’t gonna click. That isn’t ego. It’s no different to any profession (or particularly art) where a natural inclination towards it gives you a head start. That’s not to say most parts of GCA can’t be learnt through experience. It’s just harder to get there. Maybe it just happens to be that those without the natural understanding are also those without the desire, I’m not sure.


Regardless, experience counts for most in the end. The technical aspects can generally be learnt. And knowing what it takes to get ideas built is definitely key. I think there are still a surprising number of very experienced architects who are not that adept at translating detail in to the ground. That surely comes primarily with time on site (although again, some folks are just “better” at seeing the end result).


I think you are being hard on Peter by assuming his offer to work for free means he is going to stand on the sidelines rather than get stuck in. I read that he is building up enough money now so that he is able to do that initially if it is the only way he can get a start doing something, anything…. That said, you’ve seen plenty of people approach you from all walks. So I’d trust you to have a nose for who might work out and who might not.

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Become a GCA By School of Hard-Knocks?
« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2023, 10:14:01 AM »

To me, what makes someone better at design is understanding how all of the technical parts play their role, so you can design great holes that incorporate those details in a way no one even notices.  By that logic, the more experience you have building golf courses, the better you're going to be at design.  Someone with talent as a shaper or experience as a "construction guy" has a leg up on everyone else, all other things being equal.



This This This  ^^^^^^


I don't care if you're right brain rain/left brain or consider yourself super creative or whatever....it's how you organize the function that makes your artistry work.  I'm very busy building golf right now with some very artistic individuals and I feel like I spend 50% of my time being "that guy" who has to remind everyone that the art has to function and be playable. That's my role and my opinion is respected. It's my job to support the designers as they push for greatness, but not beyond functionality.


I would never discourage anyone from chasing their dreams, it's what we've all done. But the idea that you can read a few books or shadow an architect and then be ready to make the call, that thinking baffles me.


Connor Dougherty is a design associate for Jackson Kahn. Connor wanted to get into design and sought advice from pros in the business. He listened and joined a large construction firm out of college. After two years he joined my team where he spent four years building golf for 6 different architects in 4 different states. His last big job for me was as lead construction supt on a full 18 hole renovation - a highly technical project because it was 95% in a flood plain with stringent jurisdictional oversight. He worked with the architect to follow the rules AND be artistic. We graded the entire site with GPS on our dozers and then he went to work with the designer to add artistic nuance wherever possible - all on a flat site with heavy soils and 60+ inches of rain annually. 


We always knew he was going to move into design and we are thrilled he has achieved the first part of his dream. But no way he earns a coveted position as a designer in golf without the field experience. All that beautiful work that Connor helps David and Tim create has to stay together, it has to function and be maintainable. Its so, so much more than just sketching it.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2023, 10:16:26 AM by Don Mahaffey »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Become a GCA By School of Hard-Knocks?
« Reply #59 on: January 06, 2023, 10:22:03 AM »

So true, your first pp.  When I used to hire folks, I always told them they would be evaluated over 6 months for permanent hire.  Truthfully, I could usually tell within a few weeks whether they had that "designer's sense."  At least, when we were busy, as we were lucky to be most of the late 1980's-2006 or so, which was probably the last time I actually had full time staff.




Ugh, not you [and Ally, too?].  It's pure ego to think that you born with some "designer gene", and the other 99% of the world was not.  It's all a continuum, and while some people are going to design more interesting courses than others, it's not anyone's birthright.


To me, what makes someone better at design is understanding how all of the technical parts play their role, so you can design great holes that incorporate those details in a way no one even notices.  By that logic, the more experience you have building golf courses, the better you're going to be at design.  Someone with talent as a shaper or experience as a "construction guy" has a leg up on everyone else, all other things being equal.



Tom,  Ah....I think if you Google it, you will find there are different personality types, with some leaning to design.  I have told the story before but I took one of those personality tests (surprise....I have one.) The test giver came back with my results and said I was high in the design-developer category and should stay in the field I was in.  You are correct that the traits of a designer ranked slightly along a spectrum.  But, it was still a very small portion of the population in that spectrum area.  It was one of those 4 part tests where your personality was measured in 4 areas, and you got a score of something like 6-5-7-2, indicating your relative strength in the 4 personality areas.  BTW, the stereotype of the "temperamental artiste" is largely confirmed by these tests, although temperments can also vary within the design profession, with many different types being successful.  For example, I never felt the need to cut off my ear to prove I was an eccentric genius. ;D


Most people are straight line thinkers, while creative types have the (somewhat rare) ability to continuously process many different options and ideas.  And, as Ally agrees, it isn't hard to pick the creative ones out.  And, looking back to my landscape architecture class in college, we started with about 50 students, and ended with 12, with the others learning or being told they had about as much future in design as I had as a ballerina.......And of those 12, the two who appeared to be the least "hot shot designer" personalities ended up working as park department employees, or eventually dropped out of the design biz.  Not that there aren't a lot of people out there not working in their major field after college, but still.


Yes, those who can shape might have a leg up, just as those who know how to do grading plans, etc., have their own leg up in a different way.  Coming in with passion and no experience will probably make the learning process longer.  But, we have always had diverse points of entry to the profession.  Perhaps in the post WWII era when GI's and others were going to college, those scales tilted a bit to the landscape architect curriculum being the most common for that period.


I've always compared the ability to run a dozer making you a designer to the oft refuted idea that being a tour-level golfer somehow gave you the inherent skills to design.  I have never actually seen that connection, and the shaper architects who are successful, IMHO, would probably have been successful in other methods of design operation as well.  Many prefer the design-build method of implementation, but there is still design and there is construction.  As Don so astutely notes, you are probably not an architect until you have a good understanding of both.


Both are important. My favorite quote on this is that they are both so important, if doing both at the same time, one is going to suffer compared to designing and building separately (to a degree, of course, being able to tweak the design in the field is important no matter how you practice....I always preferred to try to get 75-90% of the concept done before dozers moved (easier to move a mouse than move the earth to figure out a design)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2023, 10:23:51 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Bowman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Become a GCA By School of Hard-Knocks?
« Reply #60 on: January 06, 2023, 10:40:48 AM »
This is a very interesting topic, I'm loving the back-and-forth. It's that age-old question between "doing what you love" and "why would you want to take something you love and make it into work".


At least in this case, it doesn't seem to be a case of Peter risking homelessness with this type of career move.


Partly related, but a phenomenon I've seen in a couple of places is of a well-off middle-aged person turning their hobby into a new job. But in sort of a tangential way. Like a woodworking business where maybe most of the income is from a youtube channel or something like that. I'm curious if that type of scenario would appeal in this case. (I'd also be curious what it's like in that type of vocation to be competing against someone who doesn't even make money doing the actual thing?)
I've wondered about the same thing.  I have many patients who retire from a desk job and they take up hobbies like carpentry.  Within a year they find themselves employed FT for a home builder and loving it.  Some have stuck with it because they enjoy it so much and weren't doing it for the sole purpose of feeding their family.  Others stop after 5 years because it felt too much like work.I think one advantage to those who switch careers to one that clearly pays less than their previous one (unless they make it to the top 4% of the field) is they can afford much more risk when feeding a family isn't the driving factor or a necessity.  They can trade Security for adventure that potentially provides higher rewards within the opportunities that may exist. 
I fully understand that the GCA career is very cutthroat and the revenue distribution is far beyond the first order of Pareto principle.  In the first order, 80% of the revenues likely falls in the hands of 20% of the GCAs.  Taken to the 2nd order, 96% falls into the hands of 4% of those in the field.  Pareto's Law can be found in so many fields, I'd be surprised if it doesn't apply in some level here.  And that's what I've accepted I'll be up against

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Become a GCA By School of Hard-Knocks?
« Reply #61 on: January 06, 2023, 10:41:41 AM »

GCA is only “difficult” compared to other professions or arts because it’s so niche and there are far fewer jobs than people wanting to participate.

For what it’s worth, I got involved in my thirties. Because of my age, maturity and experience in another profession, it enabled me to carve out my own path at least partially on my own terms. If I had gone straight in 15 years earlier, I would have started as some office jockey for an architect whose philosophy I probably didn’t agree with but who shaped my thoughts.


That’s the main difference between now and then: The youngsters are getting shaped by experience in the field rather than drawing details.
Ally,Well stated..

I'm not sure GCA is more difficult than other professions or arts.  But any field becomes difficult to work in if the market is smaller than the people vying for their share.  When I got out of school I wanted to study English cabinetry and learn to build Queen Anne furniture( not as an occupation) so I went to a course for over 6 months to learn.    The fundamentals and techniques were the same for everyone but some "sensed" these things much easier than others.  And the main difference came down to whether that individual had been around proper woodworking.  BUT the one thing I took from that teacher/course was that it was the furniture maker that was the critical element and not the designer.  There will be a day when golf courses will be viewed as that person/group/team made me a golf course instead of saying one guy designed me one. ... Just like a guy says that furniture maker built me a chair....So as Don says, learn how to put it on the ground and be there with it enough to know how to get what you want.  And if you have studied the game enough you can figure how to design...JMO...
« Last Edit: January 06, 2023, 10:50:40 AM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Become a GCA By School of Hard-Knocks?
« Reply #62 on: January 06, 2023, 10:58:23 AM »


Tom,  Ah....I think if you Google it, you will find there are different personality types, with some leaning to design.


Yeah, I've got the same personality type, but my ADHD tendencies may be a more accurate indicator of my personality and way of processing information.  Maybe that's really what is underlying those test results?

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Become a GCA By School of Hard-Knocks?
« Reply #63 on: January 06, 2023, 11:00:03 AM »
I am not a gca, but I have had several careers. To me, that is the real question for Peter. Is he really committed to gca as a career or is it a post-practicing dentist hobby (even if a full time one)? It seems to be the first, and he seems willing to fall on his face. So good for him. He seems to be a highly organized and disciplined person. I am sure that he will take all the practical advice to heart and put into to good use. Age does not really matter other than having to find a way to accelerate one's learning curve.


Ira

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Become a GCA By School of Hard-Knocks?
« Reply #64 on: January 06, 2023, 11:49:04 AM »
I'd be curious to know if anyone wants to take a stab at it.

How many front men golf course designers or architects exist world wide who legitimately make a living off their profession?  Not rich with private jets or Ferraris and such, but enough to afford a decent lifestyle and put food on the table as Jeff puts it.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Become a GCA By School of Hard-Knocks?
« Reply #65 on: January 06, 2023, 12:28:46 PM »
I'd be curious to know if anyone wants to take a stab at it.

How many front men golf course designers or architects exist world wide who legitimately make a living off their profession?  Not rich with private jets or Ferraris and such, but enough to afford a decent lifestyle and put food on the table as Jeff puts it.
Less than 100.  Excluding guys who work for a signature pro golfer who gets his work via a sports agent etc...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Become a GCA By School of Hard-Knocks?
« Reply #66 on: January 06, 2023, 12:40:13 PM »


Tom,  Ah....I think if you Google it, you will find there are different personality types, with some leaning to design.


Yeah, I've got the same personality type, but my ADHD tendencies may be a more accurate indicator of my personality and way of processing information.  Maybe that's really what is underlying those test results?


Have you considered having your brain saved so those studying such things can literally dig into how it is exactly that you do think?  Or in my case, people would ask, "Just what in the hell was he thinking?"  Just kidding, although I know they have saved some important brains, and it would be revealing, I think.


BTW, I don't think ADHD is all that uncommon in the designer types, although you think it wouldn't be.  IMHO (and I don't know you that well) but your combination of innate intelligence (evident in your writing) study of golf and attention to detail is what makes you a success.  As you say, there may be some great creative people out there when it comes to design, but if you can't figure out how to get the ideas implemented, you are really just playing in the sandbox.  We all probably stand a better chance of getting work if we can get projects of average design actually built, than winning some abstract design competition based on creativity with no clue if it is feasible to build as designed.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Become a GCA By School of Hard-Knocks?
« Reply #67 on: January 06, 2023, 01:30:03 PM »
To the ageists:
Betty started training jiu jitsu at 54 and was awarded a black belt 10 years later
https://www.instagram.com/bjjbetty/

While forming your opinion on all the advice, it will help to set your goals - do you want to be a part of the industry or one day, in a distant galaxy far far from now, lead and or design solo projects?
Being a part is easy, have fun do whatever.
For solo projects I'd offer the following:
Tiger Woods and I have designed almost the same number of golf courses. His firm has his backyard listed on its website!
Look at the careers and number of courses designed by two incredible architects: Rod Whitman and Ian Andrew!!


It sounds like it will take a long time at your club too.


Peace
Cheers


P.S. Design is not in one's genes, generally speaking, your genes may give you a propensity towards experiences, but not for a skill that is developed over time and experience.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2023, 04:39:38 PM by Mike Nuzzo »
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Peter Bowman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Become a GCA By School of Hard-Knocks?
« Reply #68 on: January 06, 2023, 02:18:33 PM »
Is it safe?


Love that reference, JakaB. Babe and Doc would be amused. Szell maybe not so much.
Is it just me or is the phrase ‘school of hard knocks’ being totally misused/misunderstood here?
F.
I'm sure I didnt use it right because I bet most GCAs learn it through that school

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Become a GCA By School of Hard-Knocks?
« Reply #69 on: January 06, 2023, 05:35:24 PM »
To the ageists:
Betty started training jiu jitsu at 54 and was awarded a black belt 10 years later
https://www.instagram.com/bjjbetty/



I'm not seeing a lot of comments about anyone being too old, so not sure about the ageists...but I do believe that no matter what age a person starts ju jitsu training, to become a legit black belt in 10 years tells me he/she spent a lot of time in the dojo over those 10 years.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Become a GCA By School of Hard-Knocks?
« Reply #70 on: January 06, 2023, 08:53:30 PM »
To the ageists:
Betty started training jiu jitsu at 54 and was awarded a black belt 10 years later
https://www.instagram.com/bjjbetty/



Mike:


Betty is a black belt.  How many are there?  Did she really become one of the 100-200 best in the world?  Because that's what you've got to be, to be a successful golf course architect.


I guess I am something of an ageist, because I am pretty certain that one of my chief advantages was being able to start on my own so young -- with nothing to be cautious about, and with all the time in the world to make mistakes and learn and get to where I am today. 


I don't believe that younger people are better or that older people can't become great designers, and I value experience.  But time is on the side of the young.  So if I was going to try to teach everything I know to someone, I'd pick somebody young.


But I do contribute a lot of information here for people of all ages.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Become a GCA By School of Hard-Knocks?
« Reply #71 on: January 06, 2023, 09:08:13 PM »
To the ageists:
Betty started training jiu jitsu at 54 and was awarded a black belt 10 years later
https://www.instagram.com/bjjbetty/



Mike:


Betty is a black belt.  How many are there?  Did she really become one of the 100-200 best in the world?  Because that's what you've got to be, to be a successful golf course architect.


I guess I am something of an ageist, because I am pretty certain that one of my chief advantages was being able to start on my own so young -- with nothing to be cautious about, and with all the time in the world to make mistakes and learn and get to where I am today. 


I don't believe that younger people are better or that older people can't become great designers, and I value experience.  But time is on the side of the young.  So if I was going to try to teach everything I know to someone, I'd pick somebody young.


But I do contribute a lot of information here for people of all ages.


Wow. Just wow.


Ira

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Become a GCA By School of Hard-Knocks?
« Reply #72 on: January 06, 2023, 09:34:39 PM »
I'd be curious to know if anyone wants to take a stab at it.

How many front men golf course designers or architects exist world wide who legitimately make a living off their profession?  Not rich with private jets or Ferraris and such, but enough to afford a decent lifestyle and put food on the table as Jeff puts it.
Less than 100.  Excluding guys who work for a signature pro golfer who gets his work via a sports agent etc...

Thanks for the reply Mike, that certainly sounds plausible and not surprised to hear that number.

In respect to Tom's last statement, I would whole-heartedly agree with his assessment.  Learning, getting the experience, developing a reputation, making the contacts, finding people to advocate for you, etc... takes a long time in nearly any business and trying to break into such a small niche group that late, the odds seem massively slim at best.  And its not just the golf biz, its nearly every industry where everything else held equal of course someone like Tom is gonna invest in an up and comer vs a 50 something.

However, I would also agree with Ally's prior assertion that given such a dearth of opportunity, it seems those born with the necessary skills, personality traits, where things come naturally otherwise would have a much higher success rate over the career grinder.   Similar to what we see with top notch athletes in various sports....you gotta at least be endowed with the base skills, talent, and athleticism to excel to the highest levels.

One of my pet peeves is the age old cliche that you can be whatever you wanna be if you put your mind to it.  The world is chock full of people who came up short...and for every Betty, there are countless other Karens who failed.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Become a GCA By School of Hard-Knocks?
« Reply #73 on: January 06, 2023, 09:40:15 PM »
Ira:

I've helped an awful lot of people get started on the road to being a golf course architect.  And that's really all I can do for them -- get them started.  They will ultimately either sink or swim on their own.

Case study:  which of them have done great things on their own, to date?

Gil Hanse came to work at High Pointe when he was still in grad school.
Mike DeVries came to work on The Legends right after college.
Kyle Franz was an intern at Pacific Dunes while he was in community college in Oregon.


Some of the older ones, who were finishing grad school, were just as talented, as far as I could see.  Maybe their timing was just bad, and they had to bail in 2008.  But a big part of why they had to bail then was because they had families to support, and they didn't have a good enough foothold in this business to survive the downturn.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Become a GCA By School of Hard-Knocks?
« Reply #74 on: January 06, 2023, 10:22:28 PM »
Wow. Just wow.
Can you elaborate, Ira? Maybe I'm dumb about this, but… I don't see anything TD said that rates as "wow." I agree with much of what Tom wrote.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back