2022 YANK AWARDS

[John Kavanaugh]

Don’t step on the cape of a nom de plume.

[Dan_Callahan]

I've gotta ask . . . what was there when you were there?  I thought the tent they put up for the Renaissance Cup did the job pretty well, but you were not there for that.  The topic is a bone of contention for some of the investors so I am curious for feedback on what you'd like to see.

I was there in late July, and it was just the low-profile wood structure that I know is intended to be temporary. Back in 2019 when I met you there, I remember there being some discussion about a big clubhouse sitting up on a dune versus something low that blends in with the surroundings. I think what is there currently sends the message that you are there for golf. I get that some people want the luxury country club vibe, especially at such a lauded course, but that's not my jam. And I realize it's entirely a subjective thing. But they've got a big clubhouse over at Sandy Hills which is plenty in my book. If what is currently at St. Pat's was extended to add a nice bar and maybe couches and a fireplace where you could relax and warm up on a cold day, it would be just about perfect.


Ireland is my favorite place on Earth, but if I'm being brutally honest, I'm not sure I could point to a single clubhouse over there I would describe as attractive, at least from the outside. And I'd be worried at St. Patrick's that a big facility might end up detracting aesthetically from an otherwise spectacular setting.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I've gotta ask . . . what was there when you were there?  I thought the tent they put up for the Renaissance Cup did the job pretty well, but you were not there for that.  The topic is a bone of contention for some of the investors so I am curious for feedback on what you'd like to see.

I was there in late July, and it was just the low-profile wood structure that I know is intended to be temporary. Back in 2019 when I met you there, I remember there being some discussion about a big clubhouse sitting up on a dune versus something low that blends in with the surroundings. I think what is there currently sends the message that you are there for golf. I get that some people want the luxury country club vibe, especially at such a lauded course, but that's not my jam. And I realize it's entirely a subjective thing. But they've got a big clubhouse over at Sandy Hills which is plenty in my book. If what is currently at St. Pat's was extended to add a nice bar and maybe couches and a fireplace where you could relax and warm up on a cold day, it would be just about perfect.


Ireland is my favorite place on Earth, but if I'm being brutally honest, I'm not sure I could point to a single clubhouse over there I would describe as attractive, at least from the outside. And I'd be worried at St. Patrick's that a big facility might end up detracting aesthetically from an otherwise spectacular setting.

Dan, that’s just a temporary portacabin / starters hut though.


The location identified for a clubhouse (overlooking the 9th green) is superb but it should be low lying and made of natural materials to blend with the landscape. One story lounge / bar with glass frontage with perhaps a sunken basement at the back for very small changing facilities and showers.


Then move the car park further round (near the current portacabin) to remove it from behind the 11th green and closer to the 1st tee. 11 approach has its backdrop compromised currently.


Best Irish clubhouse example is at Killeen Castle: Bigger than the St Pats version needs to be and interiors not the ideal set-up but the external architecture hides in the landscape very well.

[Sean_A]

I've gotta ask . . . what was there when you were there?  I thought the tent they put up for the Renaissance Cup did the job pretty well, but you were not there for that.  The topic is a bone of contention for some of the investors so I am curious for feedback on what you'd like to see.

I was there in late July, and it was just the low-profile wood structure that I know is intended to be temporary. Back in 2019 when I met you there, I remember there being some discussion about a big clubhouse sitting up on a dune versus something low that blends in with the surroundings. I think what is there currently sends the message that you are there for golf. I get that some people want the luxury country club vibe, especially at such a lauded course, but that's not my jam. And I realize it's entirely a subjective thing. But they've got a big clubhouse over at Sandy Hills which is plenty in my book. If what is currently at St. Pat's was extended to add a nice bar and maybe couches and a fireplace where you could relax and warm up on a cold day, it would be just about perfect.


Ireland is my favorite place on Earth, but if I'm being brutally honest, I'm not sure I could point to a single clubhouse over there I would describe as attractive, at least from the outside. And I'd be worried at St. Patrick's that a big facility might end up detracting aesthetically from an otherwise spectacular setting.

Dan, that’s just a temporary portacabin / starters hut though.


The location identified for a clubhouse (overlooking the 9th green) is superb but it should be low lying and made of natural materials to blend with the landscape. One story lounge / bar with glass frontage with perhaps a sunken basement at the back for very small changing facilities and showers.


Then move the car park further round (near the current portacabin) to remove it from behind the 11th green and closer to the 1st tee. 11 approach has its backdrop compromised currently.


Best Irish clubhouse example is at Killeen Castle: Bigger than the St Pats version needs to be and interiors not the ideal set-up but the external architecture hides in the landscape very well.

Well said Ally 👍

Ciao

[Sean_A]

COURSE I WAS REALLY GLAD THAT I PLAYED.

US. Quaker Ridge

  I played it twice and enjoyed the gently rolling ground and the routing.

England

West Lancashire

On a trip with two Open courses and other interesting courses this one stood out for me as the most enjoyable.

I have a Formby/West Lancs trip planned in April. Should be good. I haven't seen W Lancs in at least 15 years. It isn't a looker, but it was tough...totally cookie brown. I know Formby much better and it's a course for which I have a lot of time.

I need to find a theme for a NE US trip. Travis and Emmet have always appealed to me. Never seen anything by these ODGs.

Ciao

[Dan_Callahan]

Dan, that’s just a temporary portacabin / starters hut though.

The location identified for a clubhouse (overlooking the 9th green) is superb but it should be low lying and made of natural materials to blend with the landscape. One story lounge / bar with glass frontage with perhaps a sunken basement at the back for very small changing facilities and showers.

I realize what is there now was never intended to be the permanent clubhouse. However, I very much appreciate the understated look of it as compared to a behemoth that draws attention to itself. And I know people like their views, which then requires a clubhouse on an elevated vantage point. I am not one of those people, at least not in this case.


Right now, St. Pat's feels to me like it is all about the golf course. An expanded building nestled in the dunes (rather than on top of the dunes) would be my preference. I don't disagree with your point about moving the parking so it isn't behind 11 green. And resituating the clubhouse so it is more in your path from 9 green to 10 tee would make sense. I'm sure I'm in the minority on this, which is fine. And if the owners have data showing that a big clubhouse that can host events will be a profit center, they will go with that. I'm just saying I dig the subtlety of the set up as it existed last summer.

[Sean_A]

Dan, that’s just a temporary portacabin / starters hut though.

The location identified for a clubhouse (overlooking the 9th green) is superb but it should be low lying and made of natural materials to blend with the landscape. One story lounge / bar with glass frontage with perhaps a sunken basement at the back for very small changing facilities and showers.

I realize what is there now was never intended to be the permanent clubhouse. However, I very much appreciate the understated look of it as compared to a behemoth that draws attention to itself. And I know people like their views, which then requires a clubhouse on an elevated vantage point. I am not one of those people, at least not in this case.


Right now, St. Pat's feels to me like it is all about the golf course. An expanded building nestled in the dunes (rather than on top of the dunes) would be my preference. I don't disagree with your point about moving the parking so it isn't behind 11 green. And resituating the clubhouse so it is more in your path from 9 green to 10 tee would make sense. I'm sure I'm in the minority on this, which is fine. And if the owners have data showing that a big clubhouse that can host events will be a profit center, they will go with that. I'm just saying I dig the subtlety of the set up as it existed last summer.

I wonder if the gin palace serving two courses is a profit centre. I have a suspicion something small, efficient and functional will be built as Ally suggests. They should get the archie who built the Castle Stuart house to have a look.

Ciao

[Dan_Callahan]

I wonder if the gin palace serving two courses is a profit centre. I have a suspicion something small, efficient and functional will be built as Ally suggests. They should get the archie who built the Castle Stuart house to have a look.

The bigger issue to me is how early they stop serving food in Ireland. This is true at almost every course (and many restaurants). I mean, if it's light until after 10 pm, I'll definitely be playing a second round. And then you come in and discover there's not a morsel to be had anywhere. I live on protein bars when I'm over there. But that's a separate topic ...

[Kalen Braley]

Dan,

I'm curious as a reference point as I've never been to Ireland and such, so hard to compare.

Would the clubhouse setup at Pac Dunes be too much in your book? Because to me its just about perfect in size and location, (and yes of course those terrific views don't hurt...)

[Dan_Callahan]

Kalen,


It totally depends on the place. For example, Shinnecock's clubhouse is about as noticeable as it gets, and it is one of my favorites. On that site, it is perfect. I also think Eastward Ho and Ekwanok have aesthetically perfect clubhouses, given where they are. Same is true with Tobacco Road, which has a very different look from what you find in the Northeast, but fits perfectly to that area. The ruggedness of Donegal and the size of the surrounding dunes at St. Pat's to my eye screams for a clubhouse that doesn't stand out. Also, I'm not sure you could boost up a clubhouse at St. Pat's high enough to get water views, given where the first tee is (I could be wrong about this). So I'd rather just embrace the magnitude of the dunes and make them the focal point instead. But again, that's just me.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Dan,


The position that they have pinpointed for a clubhouse has spectacular views of the ocean (back down 9) yet will sit nestled between two small dunes and not stand proud, if they keep it as one level to the front.

[Adam Lawrence]

Dan, that’s just a temporary portacabin / starters hut though.

The location identified for a clubhouse (overlooking the 9th green) is superb but it should be low lying and made of natural materials to blend with the landscape. One story lounge / bar with glass frontage with perhaps a sunken basement at the back for very small changing facilities and showers.

I realize what is there now was never intended to be the permanent clubhouse. However, I very much appreciate the understated look of it as compared to a behemoth that draws attention to itself. And I know people like their views, which then requires a clubhouse on an elevated vantage point. I am not one of those people, at least not in this case.

Right now, St. Pat's feels to me like it is all about the golf course. An expanded building nestled in the dunes (rather than on top of the dunes) would be my preference. I don't disagree with your point about moving the parking so it isn't behind 11 green. And resituating the clubhouse so it is more in your path from 9 green to 10 tee would make sense. I'm sure I'm in the minority on this, which is fine. And if the owners have data showing that a big clubhouse that can host events will be a profit center, they will go with that. I'm just saying I dig the subtlety of the set up as it existed last summer.

I wonder if the gin palace serving two courses is a profit centre. I have a suspicion something small, efficient and functional will be built as Ally suggests. They should get the archie who built the Castle Stuart house to have a look.

Ciao

Although I love the design of the clubhouse at Castle Stuart -- the Art Deco look is so appropriate for something close to the sea -- the scale and operation of the clubhouse is entirely down to Mark Parsinen. Mark thought about golf courses more deeply than most; the bar at CS is just large enough to accommodate an hour's worth of tee times because his research showed that golfer rarely stay in the bar for longer than an hour after their round. And the gents' loo has a little window over the urinals with a fantastic view of the links, so you have something nice to look at while you pee!

[Sean_A]

I wonder if the gin palace serving two courses is a profit centre. I have a suspicion something small, efficient and functional will be built as Ally suggests. They should get the archie who built the Castle Stuart house to have a look.

The bigger issue to me is how early they stop serving food in Ireland. This is true at almost every course (and many restaurants). I mean, if it's light until after 10 pm, I'll definitely be playing a second round. And then you come in and discover there's not a morsel to be had anywhere. I live on protein bars when I'm over there. But that's a separate topic ...

If ya wanna play golf til 10 then Indian and Chinese takeaway is your friend.

Ciao

[Ira Fishman]

Now that this thread has diverted for the time being to clubhouses, my view is that the best of them match the context of the course.


Kilspindie
Southern Pines
St.George’s Hill
Lahinch
Dooks
Cog Hill


But nothing comes close to Woking.

[jeffwarne]

Getting back to Tom and the investors..
Is there any reason not to simply encourage players to return to the main Rosapena Clubhouse?
Is anyone skipping a round at St Pat's because they lack a clubhouse?
Can't think of a good reason to build one-surely no one thinks the clubhouse is a profit center, especially when you back out the low hanging fruit available anyway(Guinness in the fridge [size=78%])[/size]
Those same dollars can be captured at the existing common clubhouse with minimal additional overhead.

[Sean_A]

Getting back to Tom and the investors..
Is there any reason not to simply encourage players to return to the main Rosapena Clubhouse?
Is anyone skipping a round at St Pat's because they lack a clubhouse?
Can't think of a good reason to build one-surely no one thinks the clubhouse is a profit center, especially when you back out the low hanging fruit available anyway(Guinness in the fridge [size=78%])[/size]
Those same dollars can be captured at the existing common clubhouse with minimal additional overhead.

If there is no compelling reason to stop in the big clubhouse after playing St Pat's I would kick on and not bother. Once folks are in the car there is a high risk of losing their wallet. If you just played St Pat's, are you driving to the clubhouse or a place in town etc? It's a bit like an online shop, ya don't provide a link for the customer to leave your site.

Ciao

[Ben Stephens]

Could a clubhouse fit in the dunes like this house in Wales by Future Systems? - http://ideasgn.com/house-in-wales-future-systems/

Best clubhouse this year for me was a simple rectangular building at Brautarholt Golf it was perfect for it it was unassuming and stood back that it wasn't standing out with small pro shop toilets and a small bar - https://www.500daysoffun.com/blog/brautarholt-golf-course-iceland-59

[Jeff Schley]

A summary of our beloved Sean Arble's Yank Awards. Note *= Nifty Fifty addition and + = Happy 100 addition.  Welcome any corrections.


Most Surprising New Course - winner/runner up

• 2022 - Beverly GC (East Yorkshire, England) / Meadowbrook GC + (Detroit, Mi)
• 2021 - Harewood Downs GC (Chilterns, England) / Covesea Links (Covesea, Scotland)
• 2019 - Seahouses GC back 9 (Seahouses, England) / Wimereux GC (Wimereux, France)
• 2017 - Corballis Links GC + (Dublin, Ire.) / Reigate Heath GC (Reigate, England)
• 2016 - Royal Wimbledon GC (London, England) / Birmingham CC (Birmingham, MI)
• 2015 - Orchard Lake CC (Orchard Lake, MI) / Leckford GC, Old  (Stockbridge, England)
• 2014 - Cumberwell Park GC, Orange (Wiltshire, England) / Walton Heath GC, New (Tadworth, England)
• 2013 - Royal Worlington & Newmarket (Worlington, England) / Carnoustie GC, Burnside (Carnoustie, Scotland)

Most Disappointing New Play - winner/runner up

• 2022 - Malone GC (Belfast, N. Ire.)
• 2021 - Cullen Links GC (Cullen, Scotland)
• 2019 - Touquet La Mer (Le Touquet-Paris-Plage, France)
• 2017 - None all lived up to expectations.
• 2016 - Luffenham Heath (South Luffenham, England)
• 2015 - Western Gailes GC (Irvine, Scotland) / Canterbury GC (Canterbury, England)
• 2014 - Royal Zoute GC (Knokke-Heist, Belgium) / Tenby GC (Tenby, Wales)
• 2013 - Royal Ashdown Forest GC (Forest Row, England) / Trump International GL Aberdeen (Aberdeen, Scotland)

Best New Play

• 2015 - Castle Stuart GC  (Petty, Scotland) / Orchard Lake CC (Orchard Lake, MI)
• 2014 - Renaissance GC (North Berwick, Scotland) / Rosapenna GC, OTM links (Donegal, Ireland)
• 2013 - Walton Heath GC, Old (Tadworth, England) / Dormie Club (West End, NC)

Best New Play Inland Course

• 2022 - Chicago GC (Wheaton, Ill.) / Forest Dunes - The Loop + (Roscommon, Mi.)
• 2021 - JCB Golf & CC (Staffordshire, England) / Aldeburgh GC (Suffolk, England) / Berkshire GC Red (Ascot, England)
• 2019 - Hardelot GC, Pines (Hardelot, France) / Hardelot GC,  Dunes (Hardelot GC, France
• 2017 - Barton Hills CC (Ann Arbor, Mi) / Reigate Heath GC (Reigate, England)
• 2016 - Gleneagles GC, Kings (Auchterarder, Scotland) / Palmetto GC (Aiken, SC)
• 2015, 14, 13 - not noted

Best New Play Links;

• 2022 - St. Patrick's Links * (Donegal, Ireland)
• 2021 - Moray GC Old (Lossiemouth, Scotland)
• 2019 - Castlerock GC, Bann (Coleraine, N. Ire)
• 2017 - Goswick GC (Goswick, England) / Corballis Links GC + (Dublin, Ire.)
• 2016 - Kingsbarns GC (Fife, Scotland) / Elie Golf House Club (Fife. Scotland)
• 2015, 14, 13 - Not noted

Most Surprising Repeat Play

• 2022 - Welcombe Hotel GC (Warwickshire, England)
• 2021 - Swinley Forest GC (Ascot, England)
• 2019 - Alnmouth Village GC (Northumberland, England)
• 2017 - Minchinhampton GC, Old (Cotswolds, England)
• 2016 - Worplesdon GC (Brookwood, England)
• 2015 - Royal Dornoch GC (Dornoch, Scotland) / Notts GC (Nottingham, England)
• 2014 - North Berwick West Links (East Lothian, Scotland) / Perranporth GC (Perranporth, England)
• 2013 - Alwoodley GC (Leeds, England) / Old Town Club (Winston Salem, NC) / Mid Pines GC (Southern Pines, NC) / Royal Cinque Ports GC (Deal, England)

Favorite Inland Course

• 2014 - Cleeve Hill GC (Cleeve Hill, England)
• 2013 - Kington GC (Kington, England) / Old Town Club (Winston Salem, NC)

Favorite Links Course

• 2014 - St. Endoc GC (Wadebridge, England)
• 2013 - Perranporth GC (Perranporth, England)

Favorite New Play Inland Course

• 2022 - Eagle Springs Golf Resort * (Eagle, WI.)
• 2021 - Harewood Downs GC (Chilterns, England)
• 2019 - Llandrindod Wells GC (Llandrindod Wells, Wales)
• 2017 - Reigate Heath GC (Reigate, England)
• 2016 - (tie) Palmetto GC (Aiken, SC) / Welshpool GC (Welshpool, England)
• 2015 - Leckford GC, Old (Stockbridge, England)

Favorite New Play Links

• 2022 - not noted
• 2021 - Seaton Carew GC New (Seaton Carew, England)
• 2019 - Castlerock GC, Bann (Coleraine, N. Ire)
• 2017 - Goswick GC (Goswick, England)
• 2016 - Elie Golf House Club (Fife. Scotland)
• 2015 - Castle Stuart GC  (Petty, Scotland)

Best Moderately Priced Played this Year (under $80)

• 2022 - Culver Academies * (Culver, IN.)
• 2021 - Cavendish GC (Buxton, England)
• 2019 - Goswick GC (Goswick, England)
• 2017 - Goswick GC (Goswick, England)
• 2016 - St. Andrews Links, The Eden (Fife, Scotland)
• 2015 - Royal Worlington & Newmarket (Worlington, England)
• 2014 - Kington GC (Kington, England) / Perranporth GC (Perranporth, England)
• 2013 - Kington GC (Kington, England)

Best Affordable (under $55)

• 2022 - not noted
• 2021 - none (Kington not played)
• 2019 - Kington GC (Kington, England)
• 2017 - Kington GC (Kington, England)
• 2016 - Kington GC (Kington, England)
• 2015 - Kington GC (Kington, England)
• 2014 - Cleeve Hill GC (Cleeve Hill, England)
• 2013 - Reddish Vale GC (Stockport, England) / Cleeve Hill GC (Cleeve Hill, England)

Best Course Played This Year

• 2022 - Royal Porthcawl GC (Porthcawl, Wales)
• 2021 - North Berwick GC (East Lothian, Scotland)
• 2019 - Royal Cinque Ports GC (Deal, England)
• 2017 - Pinehurst #2 (Pinehurst, NC)
• 2016 - North Berwick GC (East Lothian, Scotland)
• 2015 - Royal St. George's GC (Sandwich, England) / Castle Stuart GC (Petty, Scotland)
• 2014 - North Berwick GC (East Lothian, Scotland) / St. Endoc GC (Wadebridge, England)
• 2013 - Royal Cinque Ports GC (Deal, England) / Alwoodley GC (Leeds, England)

Favorite Course Played This Year

• 2022 - Cleeve Hill GC * (Cleeve Hill, England)
• 2021 - Cavendish GC (Buxton, England)
• 2019 - Kington GC (Kington, England)
• 2017 - Kington GC (Kington, England)
• 2016 -Kington GC (Kington, England)
• 2015 - not noted
• 2014 - not noted
• 2013 - not noted

[Adam Lawrence]

I think Sean meant Beverley in East Yorkshire, England, rather than Chicago, Illinois!

[jeffwarne]

Getting back to Tom and the investors..
Is there any reason not to simply encourage players to return to the main Rosapena Clubhouse?
Is anyone skipping a round at St Pat's because they lack a clubhouse?
Can't think of a good reason to build one-surely no one thinks the clubhouse is a profit center, especially when you back out the low hanging fruit available anyway(Guinness in the fridge [size=78%])[/size]
Those same dollars can be captured at the existing common clubhouse with minimal additional overhead.

If there is no compelling reason to stop in the big clubhouse after playing St Pat's I would kick on and not bother. Once folks are in the car there is a high risk of losing their wallet. If you just played St Pat's, are you driving to the clubhouse or a place in town etc? It's a bit like an online shop, ya don't provide a link for the customer to leave your site.

Ciao

There is a segment that's headed for the car either way
There is a segment that once in the car, will go to town (but this won't include those staying AT the resort)
There is of course a segemnet who would prefer to stay right at St Pats, if given that option.
There's a also a segment that love activity back at the main ski lodge, comparing stories about their runs(courses in this case)
At the end of the day, you've already laid out extensive capital for a restaurant bar at the main resort.
Why operate both at far less than capacity for most of the year?
I've been to Rosapena in every month but July and August. It's a large facility and I've rarely seen it packed for post apres golf drinks.I'm sure they rock in summer.
Overhead makes many facilities slaves to it. Pretty soon the cart is put before the horse.
At the end of the day are the investors willing to take on the expense of an additional restaurant, with such a desired destination course?
And conversely, is the main resort willing to part with the revenue lost at the main hotel going to St Pats?


A tricky arrangement

[Sean_A]

I don't think a St Pat's house needs food beyond snacks etc, unless it's perhaps just a food van or outdoor grill set up for known busy times. Just a small house with a small bar and shop, but IMO it does need it. If done right, most of the time one person can operate the set up I envision. Honestly, no more staff than it would to provide decent service for what exists now. Rosapenna is meant to be an Irish resort with some character, not a cheap, no service muni.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

I don't think a St Pat's house needs food beyond snacks etc, unless it's perhaps just a food van or outdoor grill set up for known busy times. Just a small house with a small bar and shop, but IMO it does need it. If done right, most of the time one person can operate the set up I envision. Honestly, no more staff than it would to provide decent service for what exists now. Rosapenna is meant to be a resort, not a cheap, no service muni.

Ciao

I’d be in line with this. Generally I want a shower and a drink looking out over the course.


Only thing I would note is that St. Pats would also still need a Starter’s Hut for green fees, given the location of the proposed clubhouse and first tee. If the nines had been left as originally planned - and I for one am glad they were flipped - then the clubhouse could have served both functions.

[Sean_A]

Why not pay the fee in the would be new house? There is no starter now? I didn't find that to be an issue.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Well, that's probably more input than my partners really wanted, but thanks everyone for their interest.


There is no way we are going to build a "big" clubhouse on site . . . it's not necessary there.  And we wouldn't get permission for that even if we wanted to. 


But for St. Patrick's to have its own identity, which is a key concern of some of the founders, it needs a place to have a drink and/or escape the elements for a while.  And having such a place would make it easier for players to go back out again.  There is a perfect place behind the 9th green for that, and I hope to see it happen.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Why not pay the fee in the would be new house? There is no starter now? I didn't find that to be an issue.

Ciao

Because you have to walk 100 yards past the first tee to get to the clubhouse. It is different than having to walk 100 yards past the clubhouse to get to the first tee.