Same Hole, Different Par

[Nick Schreiber]

The 1st hole at Old Barnwell, as Brian Schneider and Blake Conant have built it, is a little over 505 yards from the longest set of tees, and will often play into a stout wind. Brian & Blake like the idea of putting the "championship" tees up a bit (to approx 475 yards) and making it a par 4 for those players, while moving back the next set of tees to 505 yards. All tees would play it as a par 5 except for the "championship" tees at 475 yards (still with me?).


My question is this: in a match, how does one deal with the difference in par? Assuming the hole has the same handicap from all the tees, if I play as a par 5 and my opponent plays it as a par 4, how does one determine the hole's "winner"?


Any insights are greatly appreciated. Cheers!


Nick

[Niall C]

Nick


I'm not sure I understand. If two players are playing a match they are playing against each other rather than playing to par. So if one player gets a stroke at that hole and he scores the same as his opponent then he wins the hole, no ?


Niall

[Nick Schreiber]

Nick


I'm not sure I understand. If two players are playing a match they are playing against each other rather than playing to par. So if one player gets a stroke at that hole and he scores the same as his opponent then he wins the hole, no ?


Niall

Almost immediately after I posted this question, Brian sent me a link to the USGA rule that says, "A player competing from a set of tees with a higher par must receive additional strokes for the round, equal to the difference between the par of the tees they are playing and the tees with the lowest par."



Niall, yes, the idea is that the par is different based on different tees. So if you were playing the "championship" tees (because I can almost certainly guarantee that you are a better golfer than I am), the yardage on hole 1 would be 475 and the par would be 4. I would be playing from the "blue" tees, or the first set ahead of the "championship" tees. But on hole 1, I would be playing a par 5 at 505 yards. Clear as mud?

[Enno Gerdes]

We had a similar situation until a few years ago, but then the other way around: there was a hole that played as a long-ish par 4 (430 yards?) from the daily/medal tees, but as a short par 5 (480 yards?) from the championship tees.


The USGA rule that Nick quotes, would not work here: the hole is obviously easier from the championship tees, so why would you give a player an extra shot in match play? The local rule we used for match play was simple: all matches have to be played from the same set of tees. If players disagree which set to play from, then the default is the medals.


The hole was changed to a par 4 from the championship tees a few years ago, for obvious reasons. 

[Sean_A]

I have been advocating this for years. Instead of adding yards, we should be trying to reducie par for the medal tees, which may well be forward of the daily tees sometimes, but with differing pars. Its usually just mental masturbation so why bother adding yards?

Ciao

[Ken Moum]

Nick


I'm not sure I understand. If two players are playing a match they are playing against each other rather than playing to par. So if one player gets a stroke at that hole and he scores the same as his opponent then he wins the hole, no ?


Niall

Almost immediately after I posted this question, Brian sent me a link to the USGA rule that says, "A player competing from a set of tees with a higher par must receive additional strokes for the round, equal to the difference between the par of the tees they are playing and the tees with the lowest par."



Niall, yes, the idea is that the par is different based on different tees. So if you were playing the "championship" tees (because I can almost certainly guarantee that you are a better golfer than I am), the yardage on hole 1 would be 475 and the par would be 4. I would be playing from the "blue" tees, or the first set ahead of the "championship" tees. But on hole 1, I would be playing a par 5 at 505 yards. Clear as mud?

That USGA rule being quoted didn't apply to individual holes. It referred to the differences in COURSE RATING for the entire course.  IOW, if you played the back tees with a course rating of 73.2 and I played a short set at 68.1 there would be roughly five strokes difference, and that would have to be added/subtracted from the stroke difference between us.


Almost no one understood it, and MANY arguments were had over it.

The good news is that under the new World Handicap System, all that math is eliminated. You just look up your course handicaps from the tees you each play and determine how many strokes you get. You get strokes as they fall on the card.


Today, for instance, I'm playing in a game with several friends, one of whom has a disability that affects his play.  normally he plays one set of tees up from the rest of us.  But we played this course past week and he opted to play the same tees, because moving up would have lowered his playing handicap by four strokes.


BTW, as has been mentioned, you and your opponent are both playing a ~500-yard hole, par is completely irrelevant in a match.

[jeffwarne]

Having not actually seen it live yet, nor seen the challenges each tee shot would demand from specific tees for each player...
I mean is it a more interesting hole/tee shot/approach for an elite from 475 than 505? and is it a better hole at 505 than 475 for a middle handicap?



Having none of the above facts/opinions..
I'm gonna go the other direction on this.
(Though I have no problem with different pars ex. 5/4)

If pushed to make a call as far as tee placement, I'd say keep the tees as is 505, 475 etc.
That 475 is still a par 5 for the member(especially into the wind), and that 505 is still a par 4 for the elite.
I realize we're talking about some wind, but...
I've seen plenty of scorecards on great courses that simply say 5/4, without overthinking it.


Though I've seen it in action before,I'm not crazy about the notion of the elite playing a shorter hole.
less par? sure-less course? not so much.
Especially on the first hole-sets a weird tone.
You get a college player hitting driver wedge from 475 on a windless day and he's liable to play his second after his playing companion has hit his third.
Whether the handicaps now change because players are playing different tees just further weirds it .
But I also think trying to allocate handicap shots any way other than balanced(i.e. a 9 gets one every other hole, a 6 every third hole) is a fool's errand that way too many people get lost in worrying about differentials, difficulty of holes etc.rather than where they fall in a Nassau match re:#9,#17,#18 etc.
That said, I'm happy to give one of your shots on hole #1 if you want to waste one there before the presses begin .


If this(moving experts forward and reducing their par) WERE the distance solution, pretty soon we'd be playing the 350 yard par 4's from forward tees as par 3's.
I like the idea of half par holes-reversing the tee eliminates that and attempts to quantify an exact par 4 or 5 depending on the tees played and ability.

[Jim_Coleman]

   I agree that par is irrelevant in a match. And I also agree that the problem of establishing handicaps for a match played from different tees is solved by using the handicap for the tees one is playing.
   But doesn’t par become relevant when the lower handicapper is playing a hole that is a par 4 for him and a par 5 for the other guy? Yes, a par 4 will beat a par 5 if no stroke is given. And a par 4 will tie a par 5 net 4 if a strike is given. But what happens when the hole as a par 4 is the number 2 stroke hole and as a par 5 is the the number 10 stroke hole? Which hole rating governs in the match when the players are playing different tees?

[Pete_Pittock]

Par is not relevant. We have a hole which is a par 4 for men, par 5 for women, playing from the same tee. If both a man and a women par the hole, the man wins because 4 beats 5. If the man gets a stroke on the hole he still wins, if the woman gets a stroke, the hole is tied.

[Jim_Coleman]

   Here’s where par makes a difference, and it’s nonsensical.  Assume a 500 yard downhill par 5; it is the 13th stroke hole. If it were called a par 4, it would become the number 1 stroke hole under the USGA formula for ranking holes. Whether one gets a stroke or not depends entirely on whether it’s called a par 4 or 5, even though in a match what the hole is called makes no difference; it’s the same hole.

[Sean_A]

Having not actually seen it live yet, nor seen the challenges each tee shot would demand from specific tees for each player...
I mean is it a more interesting hole/tee shot/approach for an elite from 475 than 505? and is it a better hole at 505 than 475 for a middle handicap?



Having none of the above facts/opinions..
I'm gonna go the other direction on this.

If pushed to make a call, I'd say keep the tees as is 505, 475 etc.
That 475 is still a par 5 for the member(especially into the wind), and that 505 is still a par 4 for the elite.
I realize we're talking about some wind, but...
I've seen plenty of scorecards on great courses that simply say 5/4, without overthinking it.


Though I've seen it in action before,I'm not crazy about the notion of the elite playing a shorter hole.
less par? sure-less course? not so much.
Especially on the first hole-sets a weird tone.
You get a college player hitting driver wedge from 475 on a windless day and he's liable to play his second after his playing companion has hit his third.
Whether the handicaps now change because players are playing different tees just further weirds it .
But I also think trying to allocate handicap shots any way other than balanced(i.e. a 9 gets one every other hole, a 6 every third hole) is a fool's errand that way too many people get lost in worrying about differentials, difficulty of holes etc.rather than where they fall in a Nassau match re:#9,#17,#18 etc.
That said, I'm happy to give one of your shots on hole #1 if you want to waste one there before the presses begin .


If this WERE the distance solution, pretty soon we'd be playing the 350 yard par 4's from forward tees as par 3's.
I like the idea of half par holes-reversing the tee eliminates that and attempts to quantify an exact par 4 or 5 depending on the tees played and ability.

The idea is for the borderline par holes. There are probably only a few on any given course. I don't see the point in adding yards when a cheaper solution for distance is to reduce par.

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

   Here’s where par makes a difference, and it’s nonsensical.  Assume a 500 yard downhill par 5; it is the 13th stroke hole. If it were called a par 4, it would become the number 1 stroke hole under the USGA formula for ranking holes. Whether one gets a stroke or not depends entirely on whether it’s called a par 4 or 5, even though in a match what the hole is called makes no difference; it’s the same hole.

and it won't matter anyway.....
If one were ranking where the long handicapper needs shots, it's always going to be on the longer hole.
A long handicapper is very unlikely, or long enough to string three shots together and reach the green.
Par 5's of any lengths are rarely stroked as handicap holes 1-4, because they are considered "easy", but they aren't easier for long handicappers.

[Jim_Coleman]

Jeff:  Not sure I understand your point. Whether I get a stroke on a hole that could be called a par 4 or par 5 depends entirely on which of the two is chosen. Same hole; different par; different stroke hole. Par makes a difference.

[jeffwarne]

Jeff:  Not sure I understand your point. Whether I get a stroke on a hole that could be called a par 4 or par 5 depends entirely on which of the two is chosen. Same hole; different par; different stroke hole. Par makes a difference.

I agree with your point about par being a silly reason to allocate a shot on the same hole.


I was a bit off topic in that I have to laugh when I see a 576 yard hole stroked as 13-14 index, when I know it's the toughest hole(vs. a scratch) that 14(or a shotless 10) will play all day.

[Tom_Doak]

I saw a hole today in Scotland that was labeled a par 5/4/5 


It had been 460 for men (4) and 420 for women (5), but then they decided to add a back tee at 530, and they call it a par 5 from there!

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Whether I get a stroke on a hole that could be called a par 4 or par 5 depends entirely on which of the two is chosen. Same hole; different par; different stroke hole. Par makes a difference.

FWIW, Appendix E: https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html

[Roman Schwarz]

I'm sure you can math nerd your way into making anything work from a strokes perspective.  From a playing/shot value standpoint, what is the reasoning for trying to make it work?  What does the green look like, and how does that influence play back toward the tee?  Par "doesn't" matter, but it matters for where shots are going to be commonly played unless you've got something like the Old Course where the wind changes how your layout plays.


2 holes that come to mind are the 13th at Dormie (par 4) and the 16th at #2 (par 5).  From the 6500ish tees at Dormie, I think the best tee box is the one on the lower right where it plays shorter than the listed yardage (465).  As a pretty long par 4 with an obstacle in the fairway, it often plays as a 3 shot hole, but getting that long approach into the green from around 200 yards is one of the most satisfying shots on the course.  It's a massive sloped green with a left sideboard, downhill from the approach, with little trouble.  It's the type of long club approach you just don't see often.  On the other hand, we've played it from the furthest back part of the box (scorecard says 492, but it's further than that).  You have to navigate around the tree with your 2nd shot, and playing your 3rd from the valley short of the green is fun, but I don't think it's as good of a hole that way with the long 2nd taken out of the playbook.


The 16th at #2 is 478 from the 6300 tees as a par 5, but the US Open card says 528 and is played as a par 4, so this might be as good of a comp as any.  It's one of my favorite par 5's hands down, but seeing it played as a long par 4 takes away a lot of the charm.  The green is severe (obviously) with quite a few difficult bunkers.  The valley short of the green isn't completely visible from the driver landing area and has a few bunkers to content with.  Making the choice from the top of the hill and then figuring out how to execute your chosen plan is the brilliance of the hole.


So if your layout makes it as a gettable par 5 for the mortals and a long par 4 for Joey D's army, either the long hitters are missing out on whatever you do in the 3rd shot landing area by design, or the layup 2nd is going to be on the bland side for everyone else.  Depending on what you're trying to do, that kind of compromise might be worth it.  Having all the tee boxes on the opening hole squeezed together could be really cool from a social standpoint.  What better way to "bring people together" than not making everyone spread out on the opening hole?  Can you figure out a way to get the shorter tees there as well?  Maybe some kind of secret passage like on a Clue board?  There's lots to chew on beyond the match play stroke implications.

[Sean_A]

I'm sure you can math nerd your way into making anything work from a strokes perspective.  From a playing/shot value standpoint, what is the reasoning for trying to make it work?  What does the green look like, and how does that influence play back toward the tee?  Par "doesn't" matter, but it matters for where shots are going to be commonly played unless you've got something like the Old Course where the wind changes how your layout plays.


2 holes that come to mind are the 13th at Dormie (par 4) and the 16th at #2 (par 5).  From the 6500ish tees at Dormie, I think the best tee box is the one on the lower right where it plays shorter than the listed yardage (465).  As a pretty long par 4 with an obstacle in the fairway, it often plays as a 3 shot hole, but getting that long approach into the green from around 200 yards is one of the most satisfying shots on the course.  It's a massive sloped green with a left sideboard, downhill from the approach, with little trouble.  It's the type of long club approach you just don't see often.  On the other hand, we've played it from the furthest back part of the box (scorecard says 492, but it's further than that).  You have to navigate around the tree with your 2nd shot, and playing your 3rd from the valley short of the green is fun, but I don't think it's as good of a hole that way with the long 2nd taken out of the playbook.


The 16th at #2 is 478 from the 6300 tees as a par 5, but the US Open card says 528 and is played as a par 4, so this might be as good of a comp as any.  It's one of my favorite par 5's hands down, but seeing it played as a long par 4 takes away a lot of the charm.  The green is severe (obviously) with quite a few difficult bunkers.  The valley short of the green isn't completely visible from the driver landing area and has a few bunkers to content with.  Making the choice from the top of the hill and then figuring out how to execute your chosen plan is the brilliance of the hole.


So if your layout makes it as a gettable par 5 for the mortals and a long par 4 for Joey D's army, either the long hitters are missing out on whatever you do in the 3rd shot landing area by design, or the layup 2nd is going to be on the bland side for everyone else.  Depending on what you're trying to do, that kind of compromise might be worth it.  Having all the tee boxes on the opening hole squeezed together could be really cool from a social standpoint.  What better way to "bring people together" than not making everyone spread out on the opening hole?  Can you figure out a way to get the shorter tees there as well?  Maybe some kind of secret passage like on a Clue board?  There's lots to chew on beyond the match play stroke implications.

RE Pinehurst #16...charm? The back tee is for elite golfers. Its part of nearly 7600 yard course!  Charm?

Ciao