OWGR and LIV golfers

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Which begs the question, why wouldn't the PGA Tour welcome the LIV contracted golfers to these events if it it elevates the quality of the field and viewership interest?

Because then the threat of suspension (and the follow-through) lacks teeth.

There will most likely be a merger of the two at some point, but that's year's off in the distance.

I wouldn't bet on that.

In short, this doesn't have to be an "us" vs. "them" proposition. Were Rory McIroy, Jordan Spieth, Justin Thomas and Jon Rahm to walk into Jay Monahan's office today and present him with an ultimatum to the effect of "Allow the LIV guys to play whatever PGA Tour events they want for the good of the league or we're walking", watch how quickly Monahan capitulates

Well no shit, but why would they do that at this point? The fact is they haven't… and they all could have gone to LIV.

It's rare that I tend to agree with Rob, but I do here, too: show me where Jay has been "an egotistical jerk," let alone on the scale of Third Leg Greg.

Jay Monahan has let his anger and bitterness with Greg Norman and LIV cloud his decision making.

A) That's very different than being "an egotistical jerk" and
B) Says you, from your position WELL outside of the entire situation.

I disagree it has "greatly hurt the Tour's product."

[Rob Marshall]

What? Top 5 from 2021 were Kokrak, Scheffler, Tway, Kickok, Dahmen and Trainer.

You think the ratings are down because the guys listed other than Scheffler were banned? BTW isn't the Kokrak the only one on LIV. I must have something wrong here. Please correct me because one of us has the facts wrong.

My bad. I meant 2020. The one and only time the event had a respectable field.

1. Carlos Ortiz
2. Dustin Johnson
3. Hideki Matsuyama
4. Talor Gooch
5. Brooks Koepka

You and me will have to agree to disagree on Jay Monahan, as the only reason he's brought anything of value to the PGA Tour is because of the pressure he was under to prevent more top golfers from defecting to LIV. He's been reactive, not proactive the entirety of the dispute.

LIV didn't exist in 2021. Wonder why the LIV guys didn't play then?

[Mike Bodo]

LIV didn't exist in 2021. Wonder why the LIV guys didn't play then?

Good question. Perhaps it ties back to not wanting to play in the lower tier events or there may have been financial incentives for players to support the new tournament year one? Brooks was obligated to be there given his role as a consultant to Tom on the restovation project. I suspect he may have gotten D.J. to turn out for it given their friendship. Talor Gooch hadn't yet established himself to the level he did in 2021 and Carlos Ortiz was a relatively young unknown on tour at the time with a lot of promise and potential. Interestingly, of those four Brooks was the only one to play the event in 2021 where he proceded to miss the cut. The defending champ, Carlos Ortiz, didn't even bother showing up.

[Jake McCarty]

As someone who doesn't play for any golf tour circuit, I really have nothing firsthand to offer, except my thoughts as a fan.


All I care about are majors. I don't care if someone plays in the Antartica league or the Ponte Vedra Beach league-it's how they step up to the plate at the majors that matters to me.


And, 72 holes no cut is way easier than the US AM, which I consider the fifth major. I'm just too stupid, I suppose, to understand the logic of why 72 holes and a cut determines who the best golfer is. No wonder I was rejected to Harvard for thinking that it's just an attempt for different golf tournaments to sell advertising.


One can talk about how OWGR dictates the field for big tournaments, an argument that I find circular and myopic.


I guess I'm confused why the Ponte Vedra Beach tour has such an outsized influence. No I'm not. It's just money.

[Rob Marshall]

LIV didn't exist in 2021. Wonder why the LIV guys didn't play then?

Good question. Perhaps it ties back to not wanting to play in the lower tier events or there may have been financial incentives for players to support the new tournament year one? Brooks was obligated to be there given his role as a consultant to Tom on the restovation project. I suspect he may have gotten D.J. to turn out for it given their friendship. Talor Gooch hadn't yet established himself to the level he did in 2021 and Carlos Ortiz was a relatively young unknown on tour at the time with a lot of promise and potential. Interestingly, of those four Brooks was the only one to play the event in 2021 where he proceded to miss the cut. The defending champ, Carlos Ortiz, didn't even bother showing up.

Financial incentives like large unreported cash payments as you previously suspected.....

[Mike Bodo]

Financial incentives like large unreported cash payments as you previously suspected.....

Or reported gifts/payments. Who knows? It all depends on the the player and or the player's agent, the tournament sponsor(s) and the terms of the deal negotiated between the parties.

[Rob Marshall]

Financial incentives like large unreported cash payments as you previously suspected.....

Or reported gifts/payments. Who knows? It all depends on the the player and or the player's agent, the tournament sponsor(s) and the terms of the deal negotiated between the parties.

Interesting, gifts instead of taxable compensation.

[Ben Hollerbach]

I can't comment about Monahan being an egotistical jerk, but its fair to question his leadership recently.

The PGA Tour acted like they were blindsided by LIV and all subsequent actions appear to have been reactionary. Monahan has for years known about the development of the PGL and the concept of an elevated tournament series that became LIV, but simply ignored the potential for change. When it came, Monahan was ill prepared to control the golf world like the PGA Tour has for decades, creating the current fractured future.

If the PGA Tour had been preparing for a potential disruption by developing a series of elevated events before the start of LIV, where is the documentation of this? Are there any press releases or article discussing the development prior to the spring of this year? Or are all accounts of what the tour was doing behind the scenes simply revisionist history trying to smooth over their ineptitude?

[Tim Leahy]

LIV golf is as dead as Roman numerals. They can't even buy time on national TV. Nobody wants to watch the players they signed play exhibition golf that doesn't compare to the PGA Tour. The Saudi's are pulling funding in 2025 if not sooner and Norman is an obnoxious leader just like his buddy comrade Trumpsky. All the LIV tour has done is make PGA tour members richer.

[Niall C]

All the LIV tour has done is make PGA tour members richer.

Don't let Erik hear you saying that. He's still denying reality.


Niall

[Niall C]

I can't comment about Monahan being an egotistical jerk, but its fair to question his leadership recently.

The PGA Tour acted like they were blindsided by LIV and all subsequent actions appear to have been reactionary. Monahan has for years known about the development of the PGL and the concept of an elevated tournament series that became LIV, but simply ignored the potential for change. When it came, Monahan was ill prepared to control the golf world like the PGA Tour has for decades, creating the current fractured future.

Ben


I agree. He appears to have been either complacent or a bit naive. He's only now trying to lock in the players with a guaranteed payment which is like bolting the stable door when half the herd have already legged it. I'd have thought the biggest thing in any sport business is surely securing your players on contract. He failed to do that.


He's now pulling out all the stops to compete but I sincerely wish the one stop he hadn't pulled was the one where he wound up the players and it started getting all personal, which I don't think was necessary.


Niall

[Rob Marshall]

I can't comment about Monahan being an egotistical jerk, but its fair to question his leadership recently.

The PGA Tour acted like they were blindsided by LIV and all subsequent actions appear to have been reactionary. Monahan has for years known about the development of the PGL and the concept of an elevated tournament series that became LIV, but simply ignored the potential for change. When it came, Monahan was ill prepared to control the golf world like the PGA Tour has for decades, creating the current fractured future.

Ben


I agree. He appears to have been either complacent or a bit naive. He's only now trying to lock in the players with a guaranteed payment which is like bolting the stable door when half the herd have already legged it. I'd have thought the biggest thing in any sport business is surely securing your players on contract. He failed to do that.


He's now pulling out all the stops to compete but I sincerely wish the one stop he hadn't pulled was the one where he wound up the players and it started getting all personal, which I don't think was necessary.


Niall

The LIV players made it personal when they started bashing the PGA tour to justify leaving. Instead of saying "I did it for the money" like Varner they lied about things like less travel, more time off, growing the game,  blah blah blah. It's only about the money.


It's also ONLY personal for Greg Norman.

[Sean_A]

I can't comment about Monahan being an egotistical jerk, but its fair to question his leadership recently.

The PGA Tour acted like they were blindsided by LIV and all subsequent actions appear to have been reactionary. Monahan has for years known about the development of the PGL and the concept of an elevated tournament series that became LIV, but simply ignored the potential for change. When it came, Monahan was ill prepared to control the golf world like the PGA Tour has for decades, creating the current fractured future.

Ben


I agree. He appears to have been either complacent or a bit naive. He's only now trying to lock in the players with a guaranteed payment which is like bolting the stable door when half the herd have already legged it. I'd have thought the biggest thing in any sport business is surely securing your players on contract. He failed to do that.


He's now pulling out all the stops to compete but I sincerely wish the one stop he hadn't pulled was the one where he wound up the players and it started getting all personal, which I don't think was necessary.


Niall

The LIV players made it personal when they started bashing the PGA tour to justify leaving. Instead of saying "I did it for the money" like Varner they lied about things like less travel, more time off, growing the game,  blah blah blah. It's only about the money.


It's also ONLY personal for Greg Norman.

Bashing a Tour isn't personal. Bashing a person is personal. Of course, many people take things personally even when comments aren't about them. That seems to be the case with many anti LIV folks....no? This entire scenario is about business; most of it in the long run will have nothing to do with golf. Anything made personal is a sideline show which many seem to buy into hook, line and sinker.

Ciao

[Ben Hollerbach]

I can't comment about Monahan being an egotistical jerk, but its fair to question his leadership recently.

The PGA Tour acted like they were blindsided by LIV and all subsequent actions appear to have been reactionary. Monahan has for years known about the development of the PGL and the concept of an elevated tournament series that became LIV, but simply ignored the potential for change. When it came, Monahan was ill prepared to control the golf world like the PGA Tour has for decades, creating the current fractured future.

Ben


I agree. He appears to have been either complacent or a bit naive. He's only now trying to lock in the players with a guaranteed payment which is like bolting the stable door when half the herd have already legged it. I'd have thought the biggest thing in any sport business is surely securing your players on contract. He failed to do that.


He's now pulling out all the stops to compete but I sincerely wish the one stop he hadn't pulled was the one where he wound up the players and it started getting all personal, which I don't think was necessary.


Niall

The LIV players made it personal when they started bashing the PGA tour to justify leaving. Instead of saying "I did it for the money" like Varner they lied about things like less travel, more time off, growing the game,  blah blah blah. It's only about the money.


It's also ONLY personal for Greg Norman.

It’s not surprising that when Jacksonville resident Cam Smith left for LIV he lost access to TPC Sawgrass, but No Laying Up has reported multiple times that Monahan has called around to try and blackball Cam from all the clubs in the Jacksonville metro area. That sure sounds personal to me.

[Rob Marshall]

"It’s not surprising that when Jacksonville resident Cam Smith left for LIV he lost access to TPC Sawgrass, but No Laying Up has reported multiple times that Monahan has called around to try and blackball Cam from all the clubs in the Jacksonville metro area. That sure sounds personal to me."

If true I would agree. I would like to hear Cam Smith's comments on this rumor.

[Mike Bodo]

I can't comment about Monahan being an egotistical jerk, but its fair to question his leadership recently.

The PGA Tour acted like they were blindsided by LIV and all subsequent actions appear to have been reactionary. Monahan has for years known about the development of the PGL and the concept of an elevated tournament series that became LIV, but simply ignored the potential for change. When it came, Monahan was ill prepared to control the golf world like the PGA Tour has for decades, creating the current fractured future.

If the PGA Tour had been preparing for a potential disruption by developing a series of elevated events before the start of LIV, where is the documentation of this? Are there any press releases or article discussing the development prior to the spring of this year? Or are all accounts of what the tour was doing behind the scenes simply revisionist history trying to smooth over their ineptitude?

Very astute summary of the current situation we're in and how we got here. You're spot-on about Monahan and the PGA Tour's knowledge of the SGL (Saudi Golf League/LIV) and PGL prior to that. It wasn't as if there weren't rumors swirling around for years of a competing tour or golf league challenging the PGA Tours power structure. I honestly think they never thought it would come to fruition - especially after Phil Mickelson so ingloriously blew himself and any thoughts of the SGL (LIV) becoming a reality up until it did. The Tour and Monahan, in particular, were completely caught off guard and they've been scrambling ever since to get ahead of the story.


The only reason the Tour has taken the actions it has is due to the players only meeting Tiger and Rory held at the FedEx Cup BMW Championship late August, in which they outlined to the rest of the PGA Tour members how the Tour is going to be structured and conduct itself going forward. I question how much input and involvment Jay Monahan had in the negotiations and wouldn't be surprised given their simultaneous announcement of TMRW Golf that Tiger and Rory are the one's calling the shots and Jay Monahan's become little more than a PR mouthpiece and overseeer of the day-to-day operations.

[Dave Doxey]

As someone who doesn't play for any golf tour circuit, I really have nothing firsthand to offer, except my thoughts as a fan.


All I care about are majors. I don't care if someone plays in the Antartica league or the Ponte Vedra Beach league-it's how they step up to the plate at the majors that matters to me.


And, 72 holes no cut is way easier than the US AM, which I consider the fifth major. I'm just too stupid, I suppose, to understand the logic of why 72 holes and a cut determines who the best golfer is. No wonder I was rejected to Harvard for thinking that it's just an attempt for different golf tournaments to sell advertising.


One can talk about how OWGR dictates the field for big tournaments, an argument that I find circular and myopic.


I guess I'm confused why the Ponte Vedra Beach tour has such an outsized influence. No I'm not. It's just money.

I agree completely.  The majors are all that I care about.  I want to see the best players in the world, regardless of where they play for the rest of the season.   Trying to keep top players out, via whatever ranking system, only weakens the significance of the majors.


As for the rest of the season, i find network golf unwatchable without a DVR, and even then lacking in golf shot coverage.   LIV coverage is much more appealing as the ratio of actual golf shots to wasted time is way better.


I don't understand the hate/fear expressed by PGAT proponents.  Resistance to change, I guess.  The 54 hole argument is hard to understand.  Would 90 hole tournaments be even better?


I hope that both sides act a bit more mature.  Stop negative campaigns and name calling and find a way to coexist.  Competition is good and can only serve to improve the quality and popularity of the entertainment product.

[Mike Bodo]

show me where Jay has been "an egotistical jerk," let alone on the scale of Third Leg Greg.

Like Greg, he's turned this into a personal vendetta and has no interest in working out a settlement with LIV. In fact, he would prefer to crush them at this point and have them disappear entirely. That's rooted in ego and has little to nothing to do with what's in the best interest of professional golf.

I'm far from alone in expressing this sentiment. Butch Harmon said much the same in an interview he did with Eurosport last Sept.

https://www.eurosport.com/golf/leave-your-egos-at-the-door-butch-harmon-urges-liv-golf-chief-greg-norman-and-jay-monahan-to-find-so_sto9115973/story.shtml


To further entrench its hardline stance against LIV and preserve what's left of the PGA Tour, they officially appointed business power-broker, Jimmy Dunne, to the PGA Tour policy board as an independent director with voting privileges (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/jimmy-dunne-pga-tour-new-power-broker-liv-golf-battle). He's essentially been hired as a "fixer" and has no qualms of using heavy-handed tactics to get his way. As the article I linked to from Golf Digest points out,
His appointment to the board, Dunne said, “is a war-time deal.” He did not use the famous line from "The Godfather," about “going to the mattresses” as the Corleone family goes to war with the other New York mob families.

Again, this has become a personal matter between warring factions and will not end well if cooler heads don't prevail and are brought to the negotiating table sooner rather than later. If not, there will be blood and the real losers in all this will be the fans.

[Kalen Braley]

While I would certainly agree there is no way Monahan didn't know about the Saudi league...

Even knowing what's coming down the pipe, how do you compete with or respond to an entity who's willing to give someone like Phil $300 Million, or for that matter someone like Pat Perez $10 million....all upfront.  Its just absurd on several levels and sure as hell doesn't make sense from an ROI perspective.

What would you have done differently if you were in Jay's shoes to counter that?  And be as specific as possible.

P.S.   Dont' forget you would then have to engage a guy who's had a 3 decade long grudge against your org, and nothing would pleasure him more than putting your balls in a vice and watching you squirm.

[Mike Bodo]

Even knowing what's coming down the pipe, how do you compete with or respond to an entity who's willing to give someone like Phil $300 Million, or for that matter someone like Pat Perez $10 million....all upfront.  Its just absurd on several levels and sure as hell doesn't make sense from an ROI perspective.

What would you have done differently if you were in Jay's shoes to counter that?  And be as specific as possible.

I applaud all the changes Tiger and Rory formulated with the Tour from the meetings held ahead of the BMW Championship. I think it's going to equate to a better viewing product and provide a lot of opportunities for guys that don't initially qualify for the elevated events. I like the restructured tournament calendar and going back to a calendar year format, in addition to the new guaranteed payment structure and purse increases. I think where they are still missing the boat is with international events and building a broader audience for the PGA Tour brand.


Problem is this all could and should have been done last fall when the SGL rumors were intensifying and picking up steam as a pre-emptive strike. Had they done that, I'm convinced LIV would not exist as we know it today, if at all. But because the powers that be dragged their feet and didn't move with any sense of urgency until it was too late, we're stuck in the quagmire we're in.

[Rob Marshall]

show me where Jay has been "an egotistical jerk," let alone on the scale of Third Leg Greg.

Like Greg, he's turned this into a personal vendetta and has no interest in working out a settlement with LIV. In fact, he would prefer to crush them at this point and have them disappear entirely. That's rooted in ego and has little to nothing to do with what's in the best interest of professional golf.

I'm far from alone in expressing this sentiment. Butch Harmon said much the same in an interview he did with Eurosport last Sept.

https://www.eurosport.com/golf/leave-your-egos-at-the-door-butch-harmon-urges-liv-golf-chief-greg-norman-and-jay-monahan-to-find-so_sto9115973/story.shtml


To further entrench its hardline stance against LIV and preserve what's left of the PGA Tour, they officially appointed business power-broker, Jimmy Dunne, to the PGA Tour policy board as an independent director with voting privileges (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/jimmy-dunne-pga-tour-new-power-broker-liv-golf-battle). He's essentially been hired as a "fixer" and has no qualms of using heavy-handed tactics to get his way. As the article I linked to from Golf Digest points out,
His appointment to the board, Dunne said, “is a war-time deal.” He did not use the famous line from "The Godfather," about “going to the mattresses” as the Corleone family goes to war with the other New York mob families.

Again, this has become a personal matter between warring factions and will not end well if cooler heads don't prevail and are brought to the negotiating table sooner rather than later. If not, there will be blood and the real losers in all this will be the fans.

If you are going to bad mouth Jimmy Dunne you are going down the wrong road. The guy is a fucking hero to a lot of people who's lives were shattered on 9/11.


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/golf-fields-rosaforte-911

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Don't let Erik hear you saying that. He's still denying reality.

I've never said that.

You gave all or almost all of the credit to LIV for the increase in purses, when in reality purses were going to go up substantially anyway because the new TV deal was worth so many hundreds of millions of dollars more.

The PGA Tour players were going to see an increase in purses, etc. with or without LIV. No doubt some more funds may have been made available, but to pretend it was the only or even majority reason why… no.

I'd have thought the biggest thing in any sport business is surely securing your players on contract. He failed to do that

Ummmmmm… contracts? For guys who view themselves as free agents? (Who then promptly signed contracts with LIV…) You can't have contracts in a meritocracy-type situation like the PGA Tour.

And those of you bashing Jay should listen to Xander on the NLU podcast. He thinks Jay has done a good job, and that you can't prepare to compete against an irrational actor that isn't and doesn't need to follow normal business practices.

That's rooted in ego and has little to nothing to do with what's in the best interest of professional golf.

A) He's not the commissioner of "professional golf." He's the commissioner of the PGA Tour. So… no, you've failed to show how this is about ego.B) What makes him a jerk? Still waiting.Does appointing Jimmy Dunne to the board somehow make Jay a jerk?

Problem is this all could and should have been done last fall when the SGL rumors were intensifying and picking up steam as a pre-emptive strike.

Hind sight is 20/20. If he does that, and nothing comes about, you (or others) would be in here talking about how Jay didn't need to make those changes, blah blah blah.


Plus, making dramatic changes then would have likely upset a bunch of people back then, including sponsors, etc. Tournaments are organized and in place with agreements, etc. for years. The PGA Tour isn't a 10-person company. They can't be as nimble as you seem to want to think they can be, and expecting that is, to borrow Niall's incorrectly applied term… not living in reality.

[Ben Hollerbach]

While I would certainly agree there is no way Monahan didn't know about the Saudi league...

Even knowing what's coming down the pipe, how do you compete with or respond to an entity who's willing to give someone like Phil $300 Million, or for that matter someone like Pat Perez $10 million....all upfront.  Its just absurd on several levels and sure as hell doesn't make sense from an ROI perspective.

What would you have done differently if you were in Jay's shoes to counter that?  And be as specific as possible.

P.S.   Dont' forget you would then have to engage a guy who's had a 3 decade long grudge against your org, and nothing would pleasure him more than putting your balls in a vice and watching you squirm.

What would I have done differently?

At any point over the last 4 or 5 years; while the PGL was developing their concept, talking with broadcast partners, sponsors, agents, and players; I would have taken the meeting with Andy Gardiner. Considering their desire was always to work with the tour, what would have been the harm in talking with the PGL? Best case scenario, Andy presents a compelling case and I see value for the Tour and the players. Worst case, Andy presents their model and I figure out how to stop their progress, preserving the tour as it is.

This conversation could have taken place before the Saudi's even became interested in PGL. It could have taken place after the Saudi/PGL split while the Saudi's were floating the idea of their own League, it could have taken place in the fall of 2021 when the PGL provided the PGA Tour with the business plan and financials for them to review. The PGA Tour at all points refused to meet with the PGL, they even went so far as to not confirm that they received the materials but told their players that they had reviewed the PGL model and it did not make financial sense. Whether true or not, the PGA Tour was clearly being disingenuous to one party, either lying to their players or lying to a potential collaborator.

The PGA Tour never had to deal with the potential of a hostile partner, until that hostile partner in LIV golf started scheduling events and recruiting players. At which time the PGA tour had missed the boat.

[Mike Bodo]

If you are going to bad mouth Jimmy Dunne you are going down the wrong road. The guy is a fucking hero to a lot of people who's lives were shattered on 9/11.

I never bad-mouthed Jimmy Dunne or said he was a bad guy. I simply said what his new "official" role is with the PGA Tour and extracted a comment he himself made in the Golf Digest article. That said, he has a reputation for being schrewed business person and was brought in primarily to keep existing PGA Tour players in lock-step with the organization. From reading the article, he comes across as the type of guy who will give the shirt off his back for a friend, but whose bad side you don't want to be on if you know what's best for you.


To publicly say "This is war-time deal" is a a pretty heavy-handed statement and is a stern shot across the bow to LIV. It also tells me things between the two are going to get uglier before they get better.

[Mike Bodo]

A) So… no, you've failed to show how this is about ego.B) What makes him a jerk? Still waiting.Does appointing Jimmy Dunne to the board somehow make Jay a jerk?

I disagree with your first point and to your second, the fact that Jay Monahan had multiple opportunities the past five years to explore working and collaborating with the PGL and later, SGL and simply brushed them off and dismissed them as though they were more of a nuisance than a help, tells me all I need to know about the arrogant jerk he is.


I suspect there's 40+ guys on the LIV tour currently that would agree with me.