Landmand merits discussion - All 18 holes under discussion

[John Kirk]

That's a lovely picture.  It's an attractive golf hole that looks like it belongs there.

My unsolicited and unexperienced opinion is the following.  If that bunker is 225-235 yards from the tee I'm playing, then the bunker is a little too big.

For comparison, let me compare this center bunker to a similar hazard at the 13th hole at Friar's Head.  Friar's Head is sort of a master class in good golf course design.  The 13th hole there is quite long, maybe 450-475 yards, so for me it would be two long shots. It has a center hazard, two little bunkers that are exactly where you want to hit your tee shot, right down the middle of a hole that bends just a smidge left to right.  Those two bunkers are tiny, each about 10-15 feet in diameter, so that hitting into them is a rare play event.

Back to Landmand #16, missing right down the hill looks like a double bogey to me. Given my game as I remember it, I would aim a few yards right of that bunker and hit driver, and hope for the best.  Usually my miss is a pull.  So I predict that quite a few people will be spooked by the hillside, hit a low pull and end up in that bunker, which looks like it may be difficult to advance the ball far enough to reach the green.

If I was playing OK, I could probably fade it off the center bunker to the fairway somewhat reliably.


Anyway, quite a provocative hole and it really looks nice on that hillside.  And please, accept that my commentary is meant to discuss the architecture and not to be critical of the course.  I like to promote conversation and analysis.  This is an interesting course worth talking about.

Thanks for the photo, Morgan!

[Criss Titschinger]

At least this time, unlike the 2019 Prairie Dunes thread, I’ve inserted myself into the conversation before the 18th hole.

Landmand was very polarizing for me. There is a lot of good stuff out there, and holes like #16 are a good example. That tee shot was one of my favorites on the course, even if I bailed hard left both rounds. However, the walk up to 17 tee, which I think was akin to climbing a three story building, was just brutal. There were other examples of juxtaposition, and I hope to get more of my thoughts on this thread another time.

I have to consider the lens I viewed my Landmand rounds from. My Sunday experience was not the best, as my out-of-shape booty self decided to hoof it. I’ve walked some pretty hilly courses in my life, but I think the sheer scale of this place, with its copious elevation changes, may put this one over the top. I forget what time my ultimately clocked in at, but it was at least 5h 45m, and that put a bad taste in my mouth. I made a joke about wanting to cry on the 14th tee. We were already four hours plus into our round and waiting on the tee. I could see the clubhouse on the horizon. And I thought to myself, “Do I really have to walk back to that tonight?! Can we just pitch a tent here and finish in the morning?”

[Gary Kurth]

FYI - Google Earth has an updated aerial image of the course layout.


I can't stop staring at Hole #4, that green...

[Jason Thurman]

Criss makes a point I've sorta brushed against throughout this thread. I read some early reviews of Landmand that talked about the short green-to-tee transitions. And in many places, you can see the fruits of a valiant attempt to design a walkable course on this property. But this is one of the most severe pieces of land I've seen a golf course built on, and in many places it just mandates a VERY difficult walk. I find some of those early reviews disingenuous. I walked 2 out of 3 rounds, but it's a HARD walk. And the climb from 16 green to 17 tee is probably the single toughest moment. I just don't think this is a place that we should advertise as a very walkable course.


The thing that I do very much appreciate about the course, though, is the golf itself. The course takes some serious chances and puts some wild stuff on offer, but I really think it sings in its lower-key moments. Holes like 5, 9, 11, and now 16 demonstrate restraint and gracefulness that stands out in comparison to some of the wilder stuff on the course. 16 is just a very fine golf hole. With a ton of fairway width, the single bunker really forces a player to make a decision and execute. The hole clings beautifully to the ridge on the left. It clearly required some earth movement, but the shaping ties in beautifully with the contours in the distance. The skyline approach is very attractive. The green has cool movement. It's just a classically solid hole to me, even if I dread the walk up the hill after playing it.

[Criss Titschinger]

I think I asked this question when we were there, but how does Landmand's topography compare to places like Ballyhack and Dismal River? I haven't played either, but I'm also wondering if there are precedents out there for courses like Landmand that do promote walking despite a severe topography. Having played Greywalls in 2021, I thought there was no way I would ever walk that course. However, it doesn't seem so bad after walking 18 at Landmand.

[Ken Fry]

I think I asked this question when we were there, but how does Landmand's topography compare to places like Ballyhack and Dismal River? I haven't played either, but I'm also wondering if there are precedents out there for courses like Landmand that do promote walking despite a severe topography. Having played Greywalls in 2021, I thought there was no way I would ever walk that course. However, it doesn't seem so bad after walking 18 at Landmand.

Criss,

I can only speak about your comparison of Ballyhack.

I walked a lot of our golf at Landmand and while the overall elevation drops and climbs were dramatic, I thought the walk wasn't that bad.

The elevation at both Landmand and Ballyhack is dramatic but also very different.  Ballyhack has streams and ravines scattered across the property dictating longer routes to get between holes or tees to fairways.  Ballyhack would be a very difficult walk.  There are a few transitions between holes that are a bit lengthy and steep.

I also have a number of walks at Greywalls and despite some rigorous segments (1 tee to fairway, 5 tee to fairway, 6 up to tee then down/up to the green, the lengthy transition from 8 green to 9 tee then the final walk up from 18 green) Greywalls is a very enjoyable walk!  I'd certainly recommend walking at Greywalls.  It keeps you moving down the hole corridors where you can enjoy the view instead of being push off into the trees on the cart paths.

Ken

[Tom_Doak]

As a total side bar, Landmand is the first course I've ever experienced with turf covered sprinkler heads in the greens.  The greens are so massive in many cases, there would be no way to get irrigation on the green pad without internal heads.

Are you sure that is true?  We have had to use them occasionally when building a big green, and I've certainly seen them on some other "big" modern courses.  But if you aren't looking for them, you might well not notice.

Sorry for the late response Tom.

I distinctly remember finding one on hole #4.  The green is one of many very large putting surfaces.  I was looking around at different pin positions and came across one of the heads.  I thought maybe it was just an old cup and discolored turf.  I found myself looking for others around the course.  There are enough massive greens to warrant their use!

Ken:


My question was the other way around -- are you sure you haven't played other courses that had them, but you just didn't notice?


It's unusual, but not unique to Landmand.  I've seen them quite a few times, and had to do it a couple of times in my own work.

[Jason Thurman]

Let's climb the hill to 17.


Disclaimer: I love every hole that I drove the green of on my most recent play. But I also hate every hole where damn Freeman cancels a skin on me, especially when I have to pay him after the round is over. So, I'm a little torn on this one. But I'm inclined to think it's the coolest short 4 I've seen in a long time.

[Ken Fry]

Ken:


My question was the other way around -- are you sure you haven't played other courses that had them, but you just didn't notice?


It's unusual, but not unique to Landmand.  I've seen them quite a few times, and had to do it a couple of times in my own work.

Sorry Tom.  I did misunderstand your question.

Unfortunate for me I haven't played many courses with greens as large as Landmand.  I'd suspect there were greens at Sand Valley's courses that probably needed internal irrigation but nothing I noticed.  I'd suspect Bandon would be another opportunity but I've yet to make it there.

By chance did you use them at Lost Dunes and after all these years I never knew???

Ken

[Ken Fry]

Ostentatious is the only word I can use to describe hole 17.  I love this hole but after four plays I never found the "best" play for myself.

Pin location will dictate so much off the tee.  The hole provides plenty of width to try and reach better angles on a lay up or take a rip at the green without concern of going out of play.

We found places on the green it was impossible to reach other sections with one putt and very difficult with two putts.

It would be easy to spend an afternoon playing this hole over and over again trying new strategies.

What a fantastic hole for match play.  There's so many ways to make good or bad numbers.

Ken

[Morgan Clawson]

Thanks for the kind words regarding the photos.


The par 4 17th by Morgan Clawson.



MacKenzie's lost 12th green at Sitwell Park in England...



...was the inspiration for the 17th green at Landmand.  Photo by Doug Bolls.

[John Kirk]

Very nice.  Not much to add here.  The concept reminds me a bit of the 13th hole at the Kingsley Club, which is about 265 yards uphill.  Both are wide driveable par 4s with huge undulating greens.  The scorecard I saw says this hole is about 310 yards long, so probably only 280-290 a bit downhill to that hole location.  From the picture, it looks like laying up to wedge distance is a sensible strategy at all times.  Maybe favor the left side for left pins, right side for right pins.  The depicted front left hole location looks like one of the easier spots.  Front locations on the center and right side of the green look diabolical.

[Ken Fry]

John,

In my four tee shots here I tried:

1.  driver at the pin, hit the top lip of the bunker and rolled back in (not really a bad spot)
2.  lay up short of the front left bunker making a pretty tricky half shot
3.  lay up to the right of the pot bunker on the right side leaving a fuller wedge which was comfortable
4.  for variety I was curious about reaching the back right bowl over the pot bunker opening up more of the back of the green.  This provided a very good angle to that back left pin location but certainly not the front left where the pin was!

Pin location will dictate so much off the tee but getting aggressive at the green can expose someone's comfort with a nervy, blind half wedge shot to a green 15 feet above you!  Similar to Kingsley there's some backstops and slopes to move the ball around to reach positions but putts outside 15-20 feet will cover some heavy undulation.

Ken

[Morgan Clawson]

This is a great hole with tee options galore.  Pick your line and distance and have at it.  Be aggressive or conservative.


If I was the hole cutter I would be tempted to pick some challenging pin locations given the relatively short yardage.  And upper tier hole locations will yield some approach shot oohs and ahhs.



John Kirk - A big difference between this and Kingsley 13 is that the green is fully visible from the tee.  Thanks for following the thread.

[Jason Thurman]

A couple thoughts on 17:

• I might be wrong about this, but I have had the thought that I can't recall a short 4 where I was regularly so far away from my playing partners off the tee. Not because we were hitting wild errant drives (although my cold top in the first round of the Mashie certainly put me well behind the rest of my group... ), but because there are so many legitimate lines of play to take on this hole.
• John Kirk isn't wrong - a layup to wedge distance will always work here, and you have oodles of short grass as a target. But the severity of the green really works to challenge the logic of that play. You'll face a significantly uphill wedge shot where misjudgment or poor execution can leave you working hard to 3-putt.
• Why challenge all the hazards and other trouble that comes into play as you get closer to the green? Well, as we saw in multiple rounds... there are some really juicy positions available if you can access them. On my first play, with the same pin in Morgan's photo, someone (Cal maybe?) found the little leftmost strip of fairway. That was a really sweet-looking spot to come at that flag from. With a later pin cut toward the right-center of the green, George made the up-and-down from the little gully near the pot bunker (online with the clubhouse flagpole in the distance) look easy. The best way to mitigate the potentially disastrous putting positions you can find on this hole, I believe, is to get close to the green where you can hit a simple pitch shot and maybe even turn some of that contour into a tool that helps funnel a ball a little closer.

[Jason Thurman]

I do think it's time to head home. It's another climb to the tee at 18, and a pretty bizarre tee shot if you ask me. You don't want to miss right - that's a hot disaster with the falloff lurking. You'll be hitting one of those provisionals that you know in your heart isn't provisional at all. So you hedge a little left, but the fairway runs away from you in that direction and it's really easy to end up running down into a valley where you'll have a nice clean lie on short-grass and find yourself staring at a green 30 feet of elevation above you with a chance to try to carry the milk carton bunker to reach in two. That's a fool's errand. You shouldn't take the bait... unless it's a skins game. Even the layup is tricky as, again, the fallaway edge right really challenges the line you'd probably like to try and take.


The blind bunker in the landing zone is a little too blind and a little too punishing, I think. I realize I think this because I found it on each of my first two plays, and I realize that makes me a bitch. But so is that bunker.


Then again, it's a very "gettable" short par 5. The very formidable hazards that lurk - the fallaway right side edge and the milk carton bunker - really give it some balance. Even the blind fairway bunker permits some sort of chance to hit a long iron to the green assuming you play a decent escape. Chance to end with a birdie, chance to end with an X after taking 10 swings from the Carton. I'm talking myself into this one being a pretty good finisher, I think.

[Ben Hollerbach]

Haven't seen it posted yet but NLU released a video on Landmand with Rob that I think should be included in this discussion:
NLU Film Room: Landmand Golf Club

[Kalen Braley]

Ben,

Thanks for posting that, a terrific watch with a lot more context on what one will encounter.  A few thoughts:

1)  I can understand the comments on 15 now.  Wide open tee shot for sure, but looks to be pretty brutal all the way in there from there especially for the average double digit capper.
2)  Those greens like 7, 10, 15, 17, etc. look beyond wild, all the more reason I really need to get out there. It looks like some like 9 or 17 would embolden a player to chip it off the green given how woefully out of position you can end up.
3)  How do those small targets at 8 and 12 hold up in the generally windy conditions?  Interesting hearing the one guy say he would never try that line again on 8 if he knew what was waiting for a slightly errant shot.

P.S.  Still can't get over how much that land reminds me of the dozens of hours I've spent exploring the Palouse Hills in Eastern WA

[Ben Hollerbach]

3)  How do those small targets at 8 and 12 hold up in the generally windy conditions?  Interesting hearing the one guy say he would never try that line again on 8 if he knew what was waiting for a slightly errant shot.

Believe it or not. The 8th green is 5,315 sqft and the 12th is 8,348 sqft. So neither would generally be considered small, but with an average green size of 14,492 sqft the 8th and 12th are tiny by comparison.

[Ken Fry]

It seems we're limping home on discussion of a fantastic course but tis the season.

I agree with Jason the tee shot on 18 is a bit uncomfortable.  There could be issues having a blind tee shot on a closing par 5 where some may wait for the green to clear.

The right hillside and long grass is not too offline from the tee.  A left side drive brings the small and deep bunker in play.  I love the temptation to go after the green but also the challenge of a layed up approach or recovery shots from around the green.

My highest praise for Landmand is to draw a parallel with one of my favorite courses, Kingsley Club.  Once you finish out on 18 green, you look back to the modest and comfortable clubhouse where the food truck, beverages and a heck of a seat waits for you.  Or you look left at the first tee and feel the pull to head back out for another go!!

Thanks to Jason for keeping this thread alive and to Vaughn, George, Jason and everyone at Landmand that welcomed us into their home.

Ken

[John Kirk]

I've been waiting for a photo to offer my remote comments.  I looked at a few photos and the scorecard onoine, so I have a decent idea of how it plays.

I have a question.  From the second (510) and third (490) tees, how confident was everyone that a solid pull would clear the junk and end up in the 1st fairway?  That would be an important consideration for me.  I've hardly played in the past few years, but if that's the case, then my strategy is to aim at the left edge of the big right bunker and swing hard, assuming the drive usually misses the little center bunker and a hard pull clears the junk and ends up in the 1st fairway.  I'd go for it in two if I was in the 18th fairway and could use a "what the hell, why not" 7-wood.

Do we have any anecdotes of reaching the green in two?  Does it hold the long approach shots pretty well?  Being way uphill like that, the ball will be landing at a flat angle.  Otherwise, get the second back into position and a wedge shot should yield an easy 5.


I'll probably make one more brief comment before we're done.  Thanks for letting me participate.  I like picking a project every year or two to practice analyzing prominent new projects.  It's really fun for me. 

[Ken Fry]

John,

From the two tees you mentioned, a pull will typically end up in the first fairway.  Where as there's a lot more forgiveness right off the 10th tee than the view shows, there's more forgiveness left off 18.

The closest 2nd shot I had into 18 was 190 yards to a front hole location.  It's an intimidating approach that in hindsight, for me, the only time to go for the green is for extreme back hole locations.  The uphill nature, wind and firmness of the greens make holding an approach from 200-240 pretty difficult.  I don't have that shot!  Plus, like most of the course, there's not many flat lies!

I will say the cardinal sin on 18 is to leave your approach short and left.  That bunker complex is pretty wild.

Ken

[Morgan Clawson]

The approach to the 18th green.  The huge intimidating bunker in front of the green dwarfs the clubhouse.  The pin is just above the right edge of the bunker here. By Morgan Clawson.



The 18th green by John Mayhugh.  Here the pin is on the far left edge of the green which requires a long carry over the fronting bunker.

[Steve Lapper]

I've been waiting for a photo to offer my remote comments.  I looked at a few photos and the scorecard onoine, so I have a decent idea of how it plays.

I have a question.  From the second (510) and third (490) tees, how confident was everyone that a solid pull would clear the junk and end up in the 1st fairway?  That would be an important consideration for me.  I've hardly played in the past few years, but if that's the case, then my strategy is to aim at the left edge of the big right bunker and swing hard, assuming the drive usually misses the little center bunker and a hard pull clears the junk and ends up in the 1st fairway.  I'd go for it in two if I was in the 18th fairway and could use a "what the hell, why not" 7-wood.

Do we have any anecdotes of reaching the green in two?  Does it hold the long approach shots pretty well?  Being way uphill like that, the ball will be landing at a flat angle.  Otherwise, get the second back into position and a wedge shot should yield an easy 5.


I'll probably make one more brief comment before we're done.  Thanks for letting me participate.  I like picking a project every year or two to practice analyzing prominent new projects.  It's really fun for me.

John,


  In our five-some, Scott & Pete, two former West Point golfers and Rob Collins all hit the green in two....from the back tees. Scott brought his in from the first fairway. I believe Rob and Pete both made birdies, and Scott a par. Their shots ran out a little from impact, but nothing extreme. I had a blind 85yds in for my third shot and actually spun back. The green was eminently fair.
 All of us remarked how much fun it was to have a gettable closing three hole stretch. Favorable memories of most golfers play at Landmand are cemented here. I think you would absolutely appreciate the scale and the focus on fun out there.


 

[John Kirk]

Thanks, Steve.  There are lots of interesting hole designs, and I can see how the finishing stretch can be a fitting climax to a round.  Overall, it looks like a pretty challenging golf course, but it's possible to finish birdie-birdie on the last two holes for a satisfying finish.


Have a nice holiday season everybody.