Landmand merits discussion - All 18 holes under discussion

[Morgan Clawson]

Hole 10


If someone has a good photo of the tee shot let me know, and I'll post it.


10 Green by Doug Bolls



Great pin position here on 10 green.  Taken from behind green by John Mayhugh

[Jason Thurman]

After the audacity of the 10th, I like the totally undefined tee shot at the 11th. Landmand is bold, but it has a lot of just classically excellent golf holes. This is one of them. Options abound with the second shot, there's a proper amount of risk and reward spread across them, and the hole sits wonderfully on the land. Excellent green site.

[Jason Thurman]

Thanks for posting the pics Morgan. Clutch shit.

[Gary Kurth]

The second shot on Hole #11 will likely frustrate the first time player if they are going to layup.  The second shot is blind to the fairway landing area, moves left away from the direct line of play to the green (look at the link to the aerial image of the hole in my post above) and slopes considerably from left to right. 


There were multiple second shots that ended up in the gunge off the right side of the fairway both days of play.  You have to aim left, way left, of the fairway bunker on the layup and hope your ball doesn't cascade down off the right side of the fairway.  It's difficult to aim that far away from the direct route to the green when you can't see the landing area.

[Ken Fry]

I'll echo Jason's comments about hole #11.  There's a lot more space on the tee shot than it looks for the first time player.


I'll also echo Morgan's comments about the left side lay up.  There's more room left than a player may think even after a few plays which leads to an aggressive lay up along side of the native area between the tee shot landing area and the green.


I love the movement of this hole and the challenge of the green complex that challenges both an aggressive shot to reach the green in two or from the left lay up area.  The hole looks very natural.


Ken

[astavrides]

Can't say what it would be like for someone who plays the course a lot, but 11 might be my least favorite hole on the course. Blind tee shot, then if you aren't far enough on the tee shot, a blind second shot, with the landing area sloping into gunch on the right. I like the rest of the hole once the green complex comes into view.
Although I screwed up the hole on the first day, I did birdie it the second day (so it's not just sour grapes on my part), although I think the tees were a little forward from where they usually are.
Sorry to be negative here. I do really like the course quite a bit.

[John Mayhugh]

The 10th was certainly a good tee shot to have a yardage guide for. Even the second time around and knowing the line of play, it's still uncomfortable aiming what seems too far right. While the punchbowl green gives you a chance to hit it on from most any angle, further right lets you mostly avoid the surrounding slopes - a good think IMO. The slopes seemed to be too steep to be able to use them to get closer to the hole unless the hole is in the front.

I think blind tee shots work much better than blind layup ones. From the tee, it's not that difficult to figure out where to go - especially with a hole map. After the tee shot, though, players can be trying to lay up from all sorts of angles and distances. A blind layup with lost ball potential on either side can take the fun out of what is otherwise a clever hole.

[Morgan Clawson]

The approach to 11 green by John Mayhugh

[Jason Thurman]

Just like Landmand, this thread begins with nice short transitions between holes, but eventually you get to really long and arduous ones.


Anyway, the transition from 11 green to 12 tee is actually one of the best on the course and includes a view that reveals much of the remaining holes sprawling over the hills ahead - it's a really elegant moment in the routing, I think. The 12th is a lovely looking short par 3 with a green surrounded by unpleasant situations. I saw some bizarre predicaments on this hole. Dan Moore and I both debated pitching from the left side of the green to the right in the first round I played. He two-putted as you'd imagine, but he had to make about an 8 footer to do so. A shot missed long gets seriously punished. Left is dead. Short and right you might find your ball and you might wish you hadn't. But if you hit the green, you have a fighting chance at a two-putt assuming your putter and/or wedge game is at least as good as Dan's.


If you like 2 and 9 at Kinsgley, meet their better-looking cousin.

[Morgan Clawson]

Hole 12
Par 3
By John Mayhugh

[John Kirk]

I'll make a quick comment in hopes that we can sustain this tour through to its completion.  It's a very interesting project.

Thanks to Morgan Clawson for posting John Mayhugh's photo.

Jason, I've played Kingsley a bunch of times and I don't see the similarity between this hole and Kingsley #2 and #9 at all.  Both #2 and #9 are highly convex.  If you miss, you usually fall way below the green surface.  This green seems to have little raised edges like a pie pan to hold the ball on the green.  Maybe it's a bit like those holes in the sense that if you miss the green, it can be very difficult to get your next shot on the green.  The 2nd at Kingsley is profoundly difficult in that regard.

Most importantly, assuming this photo is taken from the 12th tee, this hole requires an approach shot to a narrow green from an angle, which is completely different that both the 2nd and 9th holes at Kingsley.  Both of those shots are straight on, with no bunker between you and the hole to carry.  In both cases, it's a very narrow target with severe falloffs and trouble on each side.


To summarize, judging from the photo, this is a nice enough looking hole, but the comparison to the 2nd and 9th holes at Kingsley is off the mark.  This hole looks easier than both of the Kingsley holes, which is not a bad thing. Kingsley's 2nd hole is prohibitively difficult for a player with a weak short game.

[Mike Bodo]

I just want to say I'm really enjoying the photos posted of Landman and am leaning heavily towards planning a trip to Nebraska next summer to play this, Prairie Club, Wild Horse and either Dismal River or Sand Hills - whichever one will have me. LOL! I'll be treated to incredible golf at a price more affordable than Sand Valley or Bandon Dunes and can fly direct to Sioux City and be on Landman in no time. Driving from Homer to the Sand Hills area will be no worse than driving from PDX to Bandon.


I can see Nebraska becoming the hotbed of summer golf tourism in the near future. Good on it!

[Jason Thurman]

We will get this tour completed. I'm committed to that. This course is very much worthy of discussion.


John, your points are fair and it's been a LONG time since I played Kingsley. My comparison here is more related to the "2 or 20" nature of the holes. And my thought just looking at the 12th at Landmand is that it looks quite a bit easier than 2 or 9 at Kingsley. The target appears bigger. It's a shorter target, at least from the tees I played.


I do think the photo shows some of the severity around the green - a miss short or right is clearly punished. But what you can't really see from the photo is the shallow effective playing surface of the green, or the serious punishment for a shot hit long. Miss long at 12, and it's virtually impossible to hold the green with a chip or pitch. And even when you're on the green, a pretty benign-looking pin placement might still leave you reaching for a wedge.


I'd be interested to hear what other players observed, but for me in the few rounds I played, I saw some REALLY bad scores on this hole. I also had a tap-in birdie of my own LOL. But I bookended it with a 3-putt bogey after being pretty happy to keep my birdie putt within 10 feet of the hole, and a great big Other after a miss long. My observation is just that there are a ton of ways to make a big number here - maybe not QUITE as severe as the holes noted at Kingsley, but similar in its ethos on some level.

[Ken Fry]

The quick walk from 11 to 12 provides a heck of a view!
I see where Jason was going with his parallel with Kingsley's incredible front nine par 3's.  A miss here is costly and a big number is easy to find.  The green has a massive ridge that bisects the left and right sections with wicked movement to the front of the green making for some really challenging putts if you're on the wrong side.
The back nine at Landmand really fit my eye and I felt very comfortable in each of our three rounds.  I witnessed quite a few birdies on 12 and a handful of ball in pocket.  The difficulty to score if missing the green is also made more challenging by the newness of the ground/turf.  The front right is pretty spotty but missing in any condition is punished.
Again as Jason said, a shot long of the green will be severely punished!

As the snow falls here I find myself running through the holes and my shots at Landmand.  I'm already planning ways to get back out there next season.
Ken

[Morgan Clawson]

Per the Society of Golf Historians podcast, Rob Collins' inspiration for this hole was #12 at Augusta National. 

This hole does offer a shorter and safer route to the hole via the lay-up area to the left of the green.  That's something that's not available at Augusta National #12 or Kingsley #2 and #9. 

And perhaps this is a good example of Collins' effort to make the course more forgiving and playable that others.

[John Mayhugh]

The teeing are for the 12th was quite wide, and the shorter tees can benefit as much from an easier angle as they do from reduced distance. If I had to protect a round on that hole, a layup short and left isn't the worst idea. But there are loads of hole locations where getting it up and down seem unlikely. The Kingsley 2/9 comparison probably was based on where you end up if you go long. Nowhere good!

[Cal Carlisle]

As the snow falls here I find myself running through the holes and my shots at Landmand.  I'm already planning ways to get back out there next season.
Ken

Ken,
Certainly a vast departure from the nearly 90° day we spent hoofing 36, huh?

A power fade comes in handy on this hole. (I power fade which I do not possess.) As was the case with all of these pars threes I asked myself what the hell do you do when the wind is howling? The bunker in the back isn't actually the worst place to be on this hole, at least it saves you from the nether regions.


You can kind of see it in these photos, but the two ripples in the green make a 2-putt anything but certain if you choose to take the bailout on the left. We had dead calm conditions, and it was no walk in the park. Windy conditions would make this hole an adventure.


LGC 12F by Calvin Carlisle, on Flickr





LGC 12B by Calvin Carlisle, on Flickr

[Jason Thurman]

On to the 13th. Reminds me a bit of the short porch par 5 at Ballyhack from the tee. I gravitated toward a long iron off the tee to set up a short iron approach. Visually, this hole doesn't quite jive for me. Excellent green though.

[Ken Fry]

I disagree with Jason about the visuals from the tee.  I love the way the hole is laid out with a full view of the fairway down to the right turn and up the hill all the way to the green.


I do agree with Jason the green is very nice.  The uphill approach and fronting bunker complex made it difficult to dial in a good yardage.  The multi tiered green created some adventurous putting.  The back pin shelf was difficult to be courageous enough to take enough club to reach!


Ken

[Morgan Clawson]

#13 from the tee by John Mayhugh



#13 looking back at green and fairway by John Mayhugh

[John Mayhugh]

The 13th had one of the more difficult tee shots for me. It's hard to select a good line from the tee, and both times I went right into the bowl of rough. You can avoid a blind approach but have to be good at positioning your tee shot.

This pic from behind the green shows how downhill the tee shot is as well as how the distance you carry the drive affects the line you play. The first of the bunkers is about 280 from the green tee and plays quite a bit shorter.

Landmand 13 green rear by john mayhugh, on Flickr

[Jason Thurman]

#13 from the tee by John Mayhugh

This is a good look at the part of the hole that doesn't jive visually, for me. There's something about those two corner bunkers being stacked so close to each other, and their small footprints. The course feels so big an expansive - they just feel a little out of scale to me. You can see how they're dwarfed a bit by the bunker closer to the green.


But they do a job on this hole. Mayhugh's experience isn't unusual from what I saw - I watched a LOT of balls off the tee wind up in the rough on the right. I think the two corner bunkers almost help define a bad line - there's really a LOT of room out left, but the pin in the distance and all the features on the hole sort of draw the eye toward the right side. In that sense, they may work very well architecturally. But something about the visual felt a little jarring to me.

[Morgan Clawson]

I like #13 because it offers plenty of tee options.  Thurman mentioned hitting an iron off the tee. 


A player's first inclination is likely to choose the shortest route to the green, which is to get as close to that corner as possible.  But, looking at the photo, it appears that driving to the end of the tee landing area offers an easier 2nd shot.  It looks like you can play behind the bunkers rather than short of them or over them.

[Morgan Clawson]

Great photo of the 13th and 14th holes by Doug Bolls

[John Kirk]

It's a little hard to tell, but it looks as if an approach shot from the right side of the fairway (or rough) plays into the green's slope.  If you drive it long and left, the approach angle is a bit less attractive.  The best angle requires a longer approach.  Still, I'd guess the most effective strategy is a long drive and a shorter approach, despite the slightly inferior angle.

It's less dramatic than most of the previous holes.  The native bowl short and right is compelling.  They should work hard to keep that area playable.  I don't know how long this hole is, but I'll guess 375-400.  I think a long hitter (like say, Jim Colton) might just blast it at the green and take their chances.