Landmand merits discussion - All 18 holes under discussion

[Cal Carlisle]

Missing the green to the right is going to leave you with a high score. There's no way around it. The hole plays very differently from the back tees (red) than it does from the shorter tees. Get too close to the green and the approach becomes extremely delicate. The tee shot to the upper side of the left fairway is extremely difficult, but if you can swing it, the approach is much easier.


DSC00716

DSC00714 by Calvin Carlisle, on Flickr




DSC00713 by Calvin Carlisle, on Flickrby Calvin Carlisle, on Flickr

[Morgan Clawson]

The par 5 6th hole by John Mayhugh

[Kalen Braley]

Ok... does anyone have thoughts on 7?

Should this green be blown up, or hung in the Louvre?

I'll take a stab at this having only seen pictures, but it looks awesome.

Almost like its conjuring a bit of Pasa 16 in the audacity of that green.

But...I really love quirk, and this hole seems to have plenty of it!

[Peter Flory]

I had a pretty bad experience on that green.  The pin was on the middle tier and I had a short approach in.  I was playing with hickories, so wasn't putting much backspin on the shots.  On my first approach, I landed it about a foot from the hole and it released about 8 feet past and rocked up the backstop a little, then returned toward the hole... but it kept going and ended up back down in the fairway.  Then I shifted strategies and bumped a 7i equivalent up the hill and back onto the middle tier.  This one was right of the pin and didn't climb the tier as much, but again returned down off the green and essentially back in the same place.  On my 3rd approach, I tried to lob it to the hole and finally got it to come to rest, but it felt like a stroke of luck.  My playing partner missed the green left, chipped up and it went down off the green to the same collection area that I was in.  Then it took him a couple from there before he finally got it to stick. 

I'm not sure that this green works at modern green speeds in a way that is desirable.  If I ever found myself on a tier above the hole, I'd definitely be reaching for my lob wedge.

[Ken Fry]

The par 5 6th hole by John Mayhugh

Thanks for this photo of #6 Morgan.  Amazing how the severe down and up nature of the hole is difficult to capture in a photo.  This view makes it look very tame!


Ken

[Ken Fry]

Great photos of #7 Cal.


Hole #4 will create discussion but hole #7 will create the controversy.  That green is just wicked.  The severity of the slopes, the crowned nature of the putting surface, the angle diagonally across the green for most approaches.  I believe there will be more really big numbers on 7 than any other hole.


The friendliest pin locations are near the front of the green but this brings the false front into play.  If the pin is back in around some of those large humps, putts could get really challenging.  With a heavy wind, this green and its green speed could make ANY putt terrifying.


That’s OK.  Take your medicine and move on to hole #8, a par 3 of 100 yards from the back tees.  How hard could that be?!?


Ken

[John Kirk]

Like the original version of Bandon Trails #14, this hole looks too severe for medal play.  A one or two yard error on the approach to a center pin looks like it leaves a 40 yard uphill pitch over and over again.  It's not clear there is a reasonably easy safe play to minimize the damage by playing the second, third, fourth or fifth shot away from trouble and attempting a longer two putt.  Am I wrong?  Can you play way left back behind the middle pin and get it to stay for a 40-50 putt?

The overall score for a round should not be unduly measured by one's performance on a single hole.  It makes that hole too important.

If you're playing a match, then it's OK, and in fact this hole will speed up play as one player will gain a decisive advantage quickly.  Looking for good rebuttals here.
 

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Great photos of #7 Cal.


Hole #4 will create discussion but hole #7 will create the controversy.  That green is just wicked.  The severity of the slopes, the crowned nature of the putting surface, the angle diagonally across the green for most approaches.  I believe there will be more really big numbers on 7 than any other hole.


The friendliest pin locations are near the front of the green but this brings the false front into play.  If the pin is back in around some of those large humps, putts could get really challenging.  With a heavy wind, this green and its green speed could make ANY putt terrifying.


That’s OK.  Take your medicine and move on to hole #8, a par 3 of 100 yards from the back tees.  How hard could that be?!?


Ken

Have not seen Landmand in the flesh but the 7th popped out from the pictures. How much of that green is cuppable? Ballpark percentage?

[Peter Flory]

There are 2 cuppable tiers, so I'd say 35% ish.   

[Ken Fry]

Like the original version of Bandon Trails #14, this hole looks too severe for medal play.  A one or two yard error on the approach to a center pin looks like it leaves a 40 yard uphill pitch over and over again.  It's not clear there is a reasonably easy safe play to minimize the damage by playing the second, third, fourth or fifth shot away from trouble and attempting a longer two putt.  Am I wrong?  Can you play way left back behind the middle pin and get it to stay for a 40-50 putt?

The overall score for a round should not be unduly measured by one's performance on a single hole.  It makes that hole too important.

If you're playing a match, then it's OK, and in fact this hole will speed up play as one player will gain a decisive advantage quickly.  Looking for good rebuttals here.

John,


Ironically, I asked the same question of my playing partners.  I haven't been to Bandon but know the critical comments about BT 14 green.  They all agreed in concept the two holes could be viewed as similar but there are backstops getting into the back portion of the green at Landmand to assist in stopping approach shots from the rough or challenging chip shot locations around the green.


My big takeaway from hole #4 and hole #7 is that the mainstream public player won't "get" either hole.  I'd anticipate some head scratching about #4 especially with such a unique green and surround, but #7 will probably take some heat.


I'm upset with myself I didn't get to the very back of the green and that top plateau to inspect the green from that position.  For those that have played, do you remember if there are pinable spots up there??


For the record, while #7 may have made me uncomfortable, it's a cool short hole I enjoyed.  From the back tees it's only 325 yards.  If you get greedy and don't pull off your shot, recovery is a challenge.  I'd place #7 and #8 as one of the most unique back to back challenges I've faced that total less than 425 yards for both holes!!


Ken

[Morgan Clawson]

Ok... does anyone have thoughts on 7?

Should this green be blown up, or hung in the Louvre?

I'll take a stab at this having only seen pictures, but it looks awesome.

Almost like its conjuring a bit of Pasa 16 in the audacity of that green.

But...I really love quirk, and this hole seems to have plenty of it!

Kalen -


You are correct sir.  Rob Collins said that the inspiration for this green is the 16th at Pasatiempo.


Rob talks about the inspirations for many of the holes and greens at Landmand in the Talking Golf History Podcast episode 91.  It's a great listen.  https://talkingolf.fireside.fm/hosts/connor-t-lewis

[Morgan Clawson]

6 is a challenging hole because the green is not visible on the 2nd and 3rd shots.  The fall-away slope and angle of the green relative to the fairway, plus the sidehill lie make for some challenging shots.


7 is a really cool hole as both the fairway and greenside bunkers are placed right where you want to hit.
Cal's picture taken above the green indicates that there's a fair amount of room on the back half of the green.

[John Kirk]

I really like the flat shelf on the left side of the fairway, as long as it is about 170-200 yards from the tee.  It looks small and asking for a good long (3-4-5) iron for a medium hitter, maybe only a 6 or 7 iron for a strong young player.  If it's 200-230 out, then it looks too small to me.


When I say the back of the green for those "middle" or second tier hole locations, that looks like 10-15 yards left of the flag, viewing from the tee or middle of the fairway.

I could be wrong, but it does look like once or twice a year you could put the hole all the way back in the middle and it just might work for a novelty position.

[Cal Carlisle]

It's over 200 to that bit of fairway on the left. Is it worth trying? You bet. It looks like an unrealistic shot to even attempt, but even if you're in the sedge you are way above the hole with some type of wedge (in the sedge with a wedge).


I pulled my hybrid into the sedge on the left. What no one has really talked about is how easy that stuff is to hit out of. It's sparse enough to wear it really doesn't grab the club like you think it would. The soil is loess so there is a little give as your club makes contact. (It's not hard like bare clay.) I got up and down a number of times out of that stuff. If you can find your ball you can usually make a reasonable advance of your ball. In a lot of cases, you can hit a full shot like your hitting out of rough without much loss in distance.


From up on the left you can take a full shot from above the green (where you can see all the trouble). It is nowhere near as difficult as the delicate pitch shots from down below.

[John Mayhugh]

The 7th is certainly a wild green. I think where it frustrates people is that on a short par 4, you don't want to play defensively. This green makes you do that. I would agree with Peter that maybe 1/3 of it is usable for hole locations, but at an average green size of 14k square feet, that's still plenty of places for cups. We had a back middle hole, so less chance to be coming up short and rolling back. Seems a little long or a little left miss wouldn't be that bad. Definitely a holes where wind and green speeds matter a lot.

[astavrides]

I pulled my hybrid into the sedge on the left. What no one has really talked about is how easy that stuff is to hit out of. It's sparse enough to wear it really doesn't grab the club like you think it would. The soil is loess so there is a little give as your club makes contact. (It's not hard like bare clay.) I got up and down a number of times out of that stuff. If you can find your ball you can usually make a reasonable advance of your ball. In a lot of cases, you can hit a full shot like your hitting out of rough without much loss in distance.

I also played my 2nd shot (the second time I played the course) from in the sedge in the same area. I hit the flagstick on a fly from 80 yds away, and it bounced into the bunker, so I do think that the hole is unfair. :-)


It looks like they have a lot of sedge (if that's what it is called) to mow in order to make it playable, and I'm grateful that they had done that when I played the course.

[Dan Moore]

On 7 I thought it was cool how the hill behind the green and big bump on the right of the green gave the illusion the green was sliding off the side of the hill. I hit it right up to the greenside bunkers both days so had a pretty simple pitch almost sideways into the green with the pin on the lower tier. It looked like there was a lot of room for pins on the upper tier.

[Kalen Braley]

Dan,

Interesting observation as I thought similar. When I saw this pic I thought "where in the hell do you hit it" because the entire green appears unpinnable from this view! 

[Jason Thurman]

I saw several excellent shots played to the green from the right side of the hole corridor. My impression is that it's a more forgiving target than it appears, although not by much as it's certainly severe. Manageable, though.


I'm sure I saw a lower GIR percentage at 8. In Mashie-level competition, the hole reveals our wedge play deficiencies. It would be interesting to review scoring stats for this minihole from the state Mid Am a month or so ago to know what kind of teeth it shows to very strong players.

[Morgan Clawson]

The tiny par 3 8th by John Mayhugh

[David Wuthrich]

Much scarier to play the second time after you see all of the trouble behind that green after you play it once!

[John Kirk]

So understated, a surprise after the previous few holes.  What direction does the hole face?  I like it.

[Cal Carlisle]

I can't imagine this hole in a 15-20 mph wind. Less than a hundred yards and just waiting to blowup your card. Touchy little sand shots abound. I did hit a "full" putter off the back tee (on dry turf) and it just made it to the very front edge of the green.


DSC00711 by Calvin Carlisle, on Flickr

From the Tee

DSC00709 by Calvin Carlisle, on Flickr

The right side and back portion of the green (photo from 9 tee)

DSC00707 by Calvin Carlisle, on Flickr

Continuation around back right to the back

[David Kelly]

I can't imagine this hole in a 15-20 mph wind. Less than a hundred yards and just waiting to blowup your card. Touchy little sand shots abound.

I agree. We had virtually no wind and an easy pin placement on the right side and it was still intimidating.  I played to the front right just in front of the green and I think I would do that every time.

[Gary Kurth]

How many great 100yd par 3s are there?  This one has to be near the top.  Awesome golf hole.  I can't imagine what this is like on a windy day.  I will likely find out next year.