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Niall C

  • Total Karma: -4
Hole Positions in the UK
« on: September 01, 2022, 05:22:51 PM »
Does anyone else think that green-keepers in the UK are getting more adventurous in their hole positions for casual rounds ? I haven't played a huge amount of golf this year but what I have played has been on a variety of courses and at some point in nearly every round I've thought that if they used that pin position in a comp there would be a riot.


Anyone else notice ?


Niall

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 16
Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2022, 06:12:37 PM »
More rounds of golf —-> more pressure to use marginal hole locations to spread out the west on the green.

Adam Lawrence

  • Total Karma: 11
Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2022, 04:59:17 AM »
Perhaps the Altrincham municipal isn't the only course that's got a new greenkeeper/pinsetter who's both a GCA geek and a psycho? Eh, Duncan Cheslett?
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
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Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2022, 05:11:21 AM »
I’ve noticed the same trend but go along with Toms reasoning for it. This years drought in parts the U.K. may have contributed too.
Atb

Duncan Cheslett

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2022, 02:52:53 PM »
Perhaps the Altrincham municipal isn't the only course that's got a new greenkeeper/pinsetter who's both a GCA geek and a psycho? Eh, Duncan Cheslett?


I’ve already had a lot of fun in my new career as a greenkeeper!


As the only golfer on the greens staff I was quickly given the job of selecting pin positions and changing holes each Friday. Previous policy had simply been to have “6 front, 6 middle, and 6 back” and my colleagues generally picked a fairly central spot.


My first port of call was the R&A, the governing body of golf in England. Their guidelines on pin placement are brief and straightforward.


https://www.randa.org/en/rog/committee-procedures/5e




The greens at Altrincham are a lot flatter than at Cavendish and Reddish Vale, but have subtle borrows that are not immediately obvious. There are also copious greenside bunkers and mounding which protect large areas of each green from straightforward shots from the fairway.


I immediately realised that the position of the pin can greatly influence the tactics required to play each hole successfully from tee to green. It can also mitigate against the advantage of very big hitters.


We have several par 4s in the 300 - 350 yard range. I see my job in setting the pin as making such holes a routine par but a difficult birdie - even from 50 yards out.


The same goes for par 5s. If Bertie Big Bollocks can hit the green in two I’m going to make damn sure he’s going to have a tricky 30 footer for his eagle and be in definite 3 putt territory. At the same time the pin will be accessible for mere mortals with a wedge from 100 yards for their third shot.


My modus operandus is to roll a few balls across the green to identify spots which meet the R&A criteria but don’t “collect” balls. A foot one way or the other can make a big difference!


Our 7th green is a Biarritz with a tiny raised area at the back. In living memory the pin has only ever been placed on the front section as the dip gets a little damp and the grass heavy. Needless to say I put the pin at the back in my first week! An ill judged putt from distance would roll back to the middle of the green!


This caused consternation among certain members who claimed that the pin was “illegal”, being only 4ft from the back of the green atop a slight dome. Other members meanwhile, enjoyed it immensely.


As can be seen from the guidelines there is no rule about how far from the edge of a green a pin must be, despite many myths to the contrary. Happily my managers backed me and my assertion to members that “golf is supposed to be fun, and there is no greater fun than watching your buddy make an ass of himself!”


We are going to mow that green out another 6ft to give more pin positions at the back!


Greenkeeping is hard work and sitting on a mower for 8 hours can get a little dull. Setting pin positions is the highlight of my week! 😈

Steve Lang

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2022, 03:59:16 PM »
 8)  Hey Duncan,


Do you measure twice and cut once?  Carpentry now just a hobby?


Best
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The voice of Inverness"

JohnVDB

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2022, 04:47:44 PM »
The best part of my job in running golf tournaments was in selecting hole locations and secondarily tee locations.  Looking at the hole and finding ways to best use what the architect has given us to challenge without overwhelming the players.


In stroke play I always had to be aware of pace of play.  Usually the first hole (and tenth if we were using a two-tee start) would be pretty easy to get them off to a fast start.



I especially enjoyed it for match play where you could get a bit more aggressive. I’d like to give them a pretty mixed setup on the front.  For the back, I’d usually give a couple of good birdie opportunities as well as a couple of tough holes early on so the potential for big swings was there.


I especially like holes where you could put the hole in the middle (left-right) of the green, but one side was much tougher than the other.  Players generally see holes in the middle as birdie opportunities as opposed to those that are tight. [size=78%]A good thinking player made sure not to miss on the bad side while someone who wasn’t thinking would aim right at it and be more likely to mess up.[/size]

Duncan Cheslett

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2022, 03:27:46 AM »
8)  Hey Duncan,


Do you measure twice and cut once?  Carpentry now just a hobby?


Best


Yep.


Retired carpenter here.


My equipment and skills will now be put to use making tee markers and racking for the greens sheds!

Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2022, 04:05:01 AM »
Great post Duncan!
Reckon "golf is supposed to be fun, and there is no greater fun than watching your buddy make an ass of himself" ought to be remembered as one of the great lines in GCA history! :) :)
atb




Robin_Hiseman

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2022, 06:34:29 AM »
Perhaps the Altrincham municipal isn't the only course that's got a new greenkeeper/pinsetter who's both a GCA geek and a psycho? Eh, Duncan Cheslett?





This caused consternation among certain members who claimed that the pin was “illegal”, being only 4ft from the back of the green atop a slight dome. Other members meanwhile, enjoyed it immensely.





We are going to mow that green out another 6ft to give more pin positions at the back!





4 feet from the edge is a bit tight Duncan.


There may not be a law, but you should allow a minimum of three or four good strides in from the edge before you cut a hole.
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

jeffwarne

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2022, 08:53:17 AM »
Perhaps the Altrincham municipal isn't the only course that's got a new greenkeeper/pinsetter who's both a GCA geek and a psycho? Eh, Duncan Cheslett?


I’ve already had a lot of fun in my new career as a greenkeeper!


As the only golfer on the greens staff I was quickly given the job of selecting pin positions and changing holes each Friday. Previous policy had simply been to have “6 front, 6 middle, and 6 back” and my colleagues generally picked a fairly central spot.


My first port of call was the R&A, the governing body of golf in England. Their guidelines on pin placement are brief and straightforward.


https://www.randa.org/en/rog/committee-procedures/5e




The greens at Altrincham are a lot flatter than at Cavendish and Reddish Vale, but have subtle borrows that are not immediately obvious. There are also copious greenside bunkers and mounding which protect large areas of each green from straightforward shots from the fairway.


I immediately realised that the position of the pin can greatly influence the tactics required to play each hole successfully from tee to green. It can also mitigate against the advantage of very big hitters.


We have several par 4s in the 300 - 350 yard range. I see my job in setting the pin as making such holes a routine par but a difficult birdie - even from 50 yards out.


The same goes for par 5s. If Bertie Big Bollocks can hit the green in two I’m going to make damn sure he’s going to have a tricky 30 footer for his eagle and be in definite 3 putt territory. At the same time the pin will be accessible for mere mortals with a wedge from 100 yards for their third shot.


My modus operandus is to roll a few balls across the green to identify spots which meet the R&A criteria but don’t “collect” balls. A foot one way or the other can make a big difference!


Our 7th green is a Biarritz with a tiny raised area at the back. In living memory the pin has only ever been placed on the front section as the dip gets a little damp and the grass heavy. Needless to say I put the pin at the back in my first week! An ill judged putt from distance would roll back to the middle of the green!


This caused consternation among certain members who claimed that the pin was “illegal”, being only 4ft from the back of the green atop a slight dome. Other members meanwhile, enjoyed it immensely.


As can be seen from the guidelines there is no rule about how far from the edge of a green a pin must be, despite many myths to the contrary. Happily my managers backed me and my assertion to members that “golf is supposed to be fun, and there is no greater fun than watching your buddy make an ass of himself!”


We are going to mow that green out another 6ft to give more pin positions at the back!


Greenkeeping is hard work and sitting on a mower for 8 hours can get a little dull. Setting pin positions is the highlight of my week! 😈


Very cool post.
Congrats!
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

jeffwarne

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2022, 09:06:12 AM »
Perhaps the Altrincham municipal isn't the only course that's got a new greenkeeper/pinsetter who's both a GCA geek and a psycho? Eh, Duncan Cheslett?





This caused consternation among certain members who claimed that the pin was “illegal”, being only 4ft from the back of the green atop a slight dome. Other members meanwhile, enjoyed it immensely.





We are going to mow that green out another 6ft to give more pin positions at the back!





4 feet from the edge is a bit tight Duncan.


There may not be a law, but you should allow a minimum of three or four good strides in from the edge before you cut a hole.


Why?
First off, I'm sure there's some fresh turf there near the edge.


"a minimum of three-four strides" (up to 12 feet) seems like a law ;).
As Duncan, said, there is no rule.
I would argue a flat  slowish green with a collar and pin 4 feet from the edge would offer similar short side opportunity/penalty to one sloping hard away and firm and fast and 9-12 feet from the edge.
But more importantly, it exacts a penalty for poor thinking/strategy which would not be there at 4 paces from the edge on a slow soft green.


We rack our brains and spend thousands/millions for original and fresh architectural concepts, adding bunkers, etc, for "strategy"/fun/misery.
This one move automatically gets a player thinking about strategy, and induces fun for zero cost/physical effort, and allows short side strategy in a low cost (soft/slow) agronomy environment.

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ken Moum

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2022, 10:09:23 AM »

I would argue a flat  slowish green with a collar and pin 4 feet from the edge would offer similar short side opportunity/penalty to one sloping hard away and firm and fast and 9-12 feet from the edge.

But more importantly, it exacts a penalty for poor thinking/strategy which would not be there at 4 paces from the edge on a slow soft green.


We rack our brains and spend thousands/millions for original and fresh architectural concepts, adding bunkers, etc, for "strategy"/fun/misery.
This one move automatically gets a player thinking about strategy, and induces fun for zero cost/physical effort, and allows short side strategy in a low cost (soft/slow) agronomy environment.


Excellent point.


On a related note, one of the guys in my regular game in Arizona once complained about a back tee and back flag on a par four, and that everyone knows you're supposed to use a forward tee with a back hole location.


It reminds me of the uproar when Mike Davis moved a tee 100 yards up on 16 at Olympic club for the last round of the US Open  and Jim Furyk couldn't figure out what to do.


For a fun read, see https://www.espn.com/golf/usopen12/story/_/id/8061315/olympic-16th-doomed-furyk-chances-winning-us-open
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Robin_Hiseman

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2022, 10:21:30 AM »
Cutting a hole 4 feet from the edge of a green is absurd and I'm disappointed that esteemed commentators on here think it is a valid argument.
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

jeffwarne

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2022, 10:36:12 AM »
Cutting a hole 4 feet from the edge of a green is absurd and I'm disappointed that esteemed commentators on here think it is a valid argument.


I literally laughed out loud when I read that(mostly at the use of the word esteemed ;) ;D )


Let's go Duncan!
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Duncan Cheslett

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2022, 10:56:16 AM »
hi I
Cutting a hole 4 feet from the edge of a green is absurd


Why? 🤔


Surely if it was “absurd” the governing body would have it covered in their guidelines. Clearly the R&A don’t consider it necessarily “absurd”.


I would contend that it depends on the circumstances. 4ft from the edge behind a bunker or above a sharp drop off would be against the spirit of the game, but at the top of a rise where there is no peril beyond the back of the green seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2022, 11:12:21 AM »
hi I
Cutting a hole 4 feet from the edge of a green is absurd


Why? 🤔


Surely if it was “absurd” the governing body would have it covered in their guidelines. Clearly the R&A don’t consider it necessarily “absurd”.


I would contend that it depends on the circumstances. 4ft from the edge behind a bunker or above a sharp drop off would be against the spirit of the game, but at the top of a rise where there is no peril beyond the back of the green seems perfectly reasonable to me.




Too much.


If I know the pin is "nearly off the green" I'll ignore it and aim for the centre of the green.
If I don't know the course and I've fallen off the green with the narrowest of misses, then I'm wondering if the green is so boring there's no desirable locations.
Either way its not what I think of as interesting golf.


Sometimes less (challenge) is more.




Agree with the original thought.  I am seeing more pins near the edge and for some reason I did think 2m was the minimum.


On the two courses I know best they have in the last couple of years had new greenkeepers and both have 'found' great new pin positions away from the edges.  I guess the secret is to keep looking and keep experimenting without seeking obviously difficult ones.
2025 Craws Nest Tassie, Carnoustie.

Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2022, 12:47:46 PM »
Worth bearing in mind is how the size of putting surfaces can shrink over time. Where there was once putting surface is now fringe etc.
Atb
« Last Edit: September 07, 2022, 02:50:30 PM by Thomas Dai »

Peter Sayegh

  • Total Karma: 4
Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2022, 02:04:43 PM »
Cutting a hole 4 feet from the edge of a green is absurd and I'm disappointed that esteemed commentators on here think it is a valid argument.
Happy to be in the "un-esteemed" camp on this. Hole, ball. Get ball in hole.

Mark Chaplin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2022, 03:25:33 PM »
After the Sunningdale debacle in 2007 Open qualifying it’s no surprise the R&A says little on hole locations  ;D .


Setting pin positions is harder than most golfers realise.


At Sunningdale the R&A didn’t involve the greenkeeping team, put the pin on a slope and had to halt play and move the pin after four groups had played the hole.
Cave Nil Vino

Niall C

  • Total Karma: -4
Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2022, 05:51:06 AM »
Agree with the original thought.  I am seeing more pins near the edge and for some reason I did think 2m was the minimum.


On the two courses I know best they have in the last couple of years had new greenkeepers and both have 'found' great new pin positions away from the edges.  I guess the secret is to keep looking and keep experimenting without seeking obviously difficult ones.


This was more what I was thinking of when I wrote the original post. Pin positions right on the edge of a slope rather than a couple of feet away; pin positions on gradients where previously they would have stayed away from etc. Personally I quite enjoy it and it certainly means a two putt isn't a given.


As for the reason, I note what Tom and others say about spreading play but I tend to think it is greenkeepers being creative in order to save their favoured pin positions for competitions. Certainly I don't think it is because UK greens are being kept that much quicker although I tend to think over the last couple of decades that conditioning has generally got better.


Niall

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2022, 01:15:49 PM »
Perhaps the Altrincham municipal isn't the only course that's got a new greenkeeper/pinsetter who's both a GCA geek and a psycho? Eh, Duncan Cheslett?





This caused consternation among certain members who claimed that the pin was “illegal”, being only 4ft from the back of the green atop a slight dome. Other members meanwhile, enjoyed it immensely.





We are going to mow that green out another 6ft to give more pin positions at the back!





4 feet from the edge is a bit tight Duncan.


There may not be a law, but you should allow a minimum of three or four good strides in from the edge before you cut a hole.

Much depends on green speeds, but even so, I would think two yards rather than three or four is a reasonable minimum.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Duncan Cheslett

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2022, 02:05:49 PM »

Much depends on green speeds, but even so, I would think two yards rather than three or four is a reasonable minimum.

Ciao


Three or four yards as a minimum is ridiculous. On many greens it would eliminate most pinnable positions.


There are plenty of older courses with greens only seven or eight yards across!

Ally Mcintosh

  • Total Karma: 6
Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2022, 02:10:28 PM »
I can only think of two holes that have greens 7 or 8 yards across:


The 5th at Boston GC and that short par-4 at Mach Dunes.


Even Riviera’s 10th is more like 10-12 yards wide if I recall.

Mark Pearce

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2022, 04:30:11 PM »

Much depends on green speeds, but even so, I would think two yards rather than three or four is a reasonable minimum.

Ciao


Three or four yards as a minimum is ridiculous. On many greens it would eliminate most pinnable positions.


There are plenty of older courses with greens only seven or eight yards across!
Like Ally, I can't think of many holes with greens as small as that.  Can you list a few.


And three or four yards as a minimum would deprive a lot of holes of some great pin positions.
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.