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Jim_Coleman

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How Influential Are an Owner’s Design Requests?
« on: August 28, 2022, 09:56:27 AM »

   I asked this question on the thread about Tom Coyne’s interview with Tom Doak. Rather than divert that discussion, I thought I’d ask it on its own.
     I found Tom’s discussion of #17 at Tara Iti interesting. He built a hole he was very proud of, and changed it at the request of the owner. What I wonder is, how often does an owner’s preferences (other than budget and other economic issues) influence a design?  I know Tom didn’t say he didn’t like the Tara Iti change, but would an architect design something at an owner’s request even if he felt his idea was preferable?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2022, 11:11:01 AM by Jim_Coleman »

David_Tepper

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Re: How Important Are an Owner’s Design Requests?
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2022, 10:30:19 AM »
While my knowledge is, at best, 2nd or 3rd hand, my sense is both Mark Parsinen and Mike Keiser have had a fair amount of input in the design of the courses they have developed. Others here know much more about this than I do. 
« Last Edit: August 28, 2022, 11:23:00 AM by David_Tepper »

cary lichtenstein

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Re: How Important Are an Owner’s Design Requests?
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2022, 10:55:44 AM »
Sometimes it is about challenging the architect to think about something he didn't think of, give him the germ of an idea and see where he takes it.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Tom_Doak

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Re: How Important Are an Owner’s Design Requests?
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2022, 11:12:59 AM »

     I found Tom’s discussion of #17 at Tara Iti interesting. He built a hole he was very proud of, and changed it at the request of the owner. What I wonder is, how often does an owner’s preferences (other than budget and other economic issues) influence a design?  I know Tom didn’t say he didn’t like the Tara Iti change, but would an architect design something at an owner’s request even if he felt his idea was preferable?


Jim:


This deserves a long answer and unfortunately I don't have time for a long one right now, because I am playing golf with Tom Coyne this afternoon!


The short answer, in this specific case, is that the change to the 17th at Tara Iti didn't affect anything I was proud of in the design.  I'd been afraid to make the hole "too tough" and the client was telling me he wanted that hole to be tough, more than the course in general.  He was even encouraging me to put more contour in the green [!!] when we had been trying to maintain restraint.  I didn't have a problem with any of that -- I just had to decide if we could get the work done on top of everything else we had to do in the 4-5 days I had to finish the last few holes.


How to interact with a client is a crucial part of an architect's business, and I've been fortunate to work with and get to know many of the best -- in addition to all of my own clients, I've been able to count Mark Parsinen, Dick Youngscap, and Herb Kohler as longtime friends.  I will get back to this thread sometime in the next week and post a bit more about these dynamics.

Brian Ross

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Re: How Important Are an Owner’s Design Requests?
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2022, 11:38:43 AM »
They are very important, IMO. After all, they are the one paying the bills and they are the one who must live with what we've built once we go away. At the same time, presumably every owner has chosen to hire an architect because we are experts in the field of design and construction and they are not, so ideally, by the time the first shovel goes in the ground, they have been able to develop a level of trust that we understand and can implement their vision. And hopefully they have done their research on the front end and have hired the right person for the job and haven't hired Tom Doak or Bill Coore and then asked them to build an artificial waterfall behind their 18th green.

Every owner is different, but there is (almost) always going to be a fair amount of back and forth between the owner and the architect over the course of a project. The best owners, though, are the ones who can relay their vision for the property or for a certain feature but then let the architect implement it without micromanaging the process or being overly nitpicky with the results.
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Jim_Coleman

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Re: How Influential Are an Owner’s Design Requests?
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2022, 12:23:07 PM »
Tom:  Say hello to Tom for me. I saw him a couple of weeks ago. I think he understands why I’m asking this question.

Tom_Doak

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Re: How Important Are an Owner’s Design Requests?
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2022, 08:15:45 PM »
They are very important, IMO. After all, they are the one paying the bills and they are the one who must live with what we've built once we go away. At the same time, presumably every owner has chosen to hire an architect because we are experts in the field of design and construction and they are not, so ideally, by the time the first shovel goes in the ground, they have been able to develop a level of trust that we understand and can implement their vision. And hopefully they have done their research on the front end and have hired the right person for the job and haven't hired Tom Doak or Bill Coore and then asked them to build an artificial waterfall behind their 18th green.

Every owner is different, but there is (almost) always going to be a fair amount of back and forth between the owner and the architect over the course of a project. The best owners, though, are the ones who can relay their vision for the property or for a certain feature but then let the architect implement it without micromanaging the process or being overly nitpicky with the results.




Brian answered this pretty well, but he hasn't had as many clients as I have, so it's a bit more complicated than he says.


First of all, while he puts the onus on the client not to hire the wrong guy for the job, it's also in the architect's interest to decline jobs where he doesn't feel he's a good fit for the client.  I never pursued working for Donald Trump when I had the chance, because I thought he was the kind of guy who would at some point INSIST on some feature I thought was awful, and I'd have to choose between walking away and building something I really didn't like.  So I walked away right up front.


But at the same time, it's important to involve the client, because hopefully they are doing the project to enjoy the result, and because you want them to like what you've built and understand why it is what it is.  My very first client, Mr. Hayden, was pretty hands off, which I thought at the time was a dream, but it turned into a nightmare when golfers came in griping about this feature or that and he thought maybe we should fix those things!  If he'd been more involved, he would have defended them against the usual griping that every golfer does.


The most difficult situations I've been involved in were those where there was someone between the client and me, pushing their own agenda, or a couple of times when a client triangulated between me and a co-designer to try and get their own way.  Any job where design decisions become political is destined to fall short of what it should have been.


Paul Jones

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Re: How Influential Are an Owner’s Design Requests?
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2022, 08:37:03 PM »
I would suspect that Bobby Jones had quite a bit of influence on what Alister MacKenzie designed and built.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Wade Whitehead

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Re: How Influential Are an Owner’s Design Requests?
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2022, 08:55:50 PM »
Owners may or may not make controversial requests up front, but it's certain that they have tremendous influence by making changes after a course is built.

In addition, they decide maintenance and playability standards, which can change drastically over a course's life cycle.

WW

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: How Important Are an Owner’s Design Requests?
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2022, 09:21:32 PM »
They are very important, IMO. After all, they are the one paying the bills and they are the one who must live with what we've built once we go away. At the same time, presumably every owner has chosen to hire an architect because we are experts in the field of design and construction and they are not, so ideally, by the time the first shovel goes in the ground, they have been able to develop a level of trust that we understand and can implement their vision. And hopefully they have done their research on the front end and have hired the right person for the job and haven't hired Tom Doak or Bill Coore and then asked them to build an artificial waterfall behind their 18th green.

Every owner is different, but there is (almost) always going to be a fair amount of back and forth between the owner and the architect over the course of a project. The best owners, though, are the ones who can relay their vision for the property or for a certain feature but then let the architect implement it without micromanaging the process or being overly nitpicky with the results.


I agree that Brian said it well, especially for the hundreds of architects who are not the top 5-10 names.  As both BR and TD mention, there are probably few commissions won without walking the property with the owner or discussing things with them before you take the site walk.  That would hopefully red flag some concerns on either side, but when you have a family to feed or kids to put through college, you might wait until after you get the job to really discuss that waterfall behind the 18th green.


I have found the best owners clearly articulate the big picture and goals, but mostly leave the details and design to the architect.  That said, I think almost every course I did had a special request.  Early in my career, and not long after TPC got famous, it was of course, island greens, which really don't work all that well for most courses, both being too difficult and having walk on and walk off problems.


And, as Brian says, some back and forth is natural.  A funny example is my footprint bunker up at Giant's Ridge, which the owner's rep was against (at least until they sold thousands of apparel items with that logo)  But, when I wanted to add a partial second print behind the next green, he was pretty firm that "the joke is only funny once."  And, he was right. 


I could be wrong, but the initial post sort of implies the architect should have total say and is always right.  In reality, any of us who heads/headed a firm got suggestions from staff, owner's rep, superintendent (often hired well after construction begins) and even passers by, even if they don't peruse golf club atlas.  A separate thread might be to list the craziest suggestions someone made to us as architects, although to be fair, we should probably also have a list of owners, others, or even budgets, that kept us from following our own wrong instincts.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jim_Coleman

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Re: How Influential Are an Owner’s Design Requests?
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2022, 11:31:57 PM »
Jeff: If you interpreted my original post as suggesting that an architect should have total say and is always right, my writing needs improving. There is no way that a closed minded architect can be great. I assume architects get great ideas from an almost infinite pool of sources.
   But, I also assume it must happen that an owner can have bad ideas. What if Tom didn’t like the owner’s suggestion on #17 at Tara Iti? Will only the top guys refuse such a request? I assume this must happen quite a bit and is a very tricky part of the business. On the one hand, an architect wants work. On the other, he doesn’t want to put his name on an imperfect design.
   I suppose it’s no different than when a client insists on making a bad change to a lawyer’s brief. The good lawyers figure out a way to make it work. The bad ones work for Trump. (Sorry, I couldn’t resist.)

Tom_Doak

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Re: How Important Are an Owner’s Design Requests?
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2022, 07:58:19 AM »


I think almost every course I did had a special request.  Early in my career, and not long after TPC got famous, it was of course, island greens, which really don't work all that well for most courses, both being too difficult and having walk on and walk off problems.



So, how many island greens did you build?

Tom_Doak

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Re: How Influential Are an Owner’s Design Requests?
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2022, 08:19:17 AM »
Jeff: If you interpreted my original post as suggesting that an architect should have total say and is always right, my writing needs improving. There is no way that a closed minded architect can be great. I assume architects get great ideas from an almost infinite pool of sources.
   But, I also assume it must happen that an owner can have bad ideas. What if Tom didn’t like the owner’s suggestion on #17 at Tara Iti? Will only the top guys refuse such a request? I assume this must happen quite a bit and is a very tricky part of the business. On the one hand, an architect wants work. On the other, he doesn’t want to put his name on an imperfect design.



When I was working at Long Cove, the PGA Tour announced a new event at Kingsmill in Virginia.  I happened to be taking Mr. Dye out to the job site the next morning, and he was clearly bothered by that, because he didn't like how the course had turned out.  He told me that during construction, the client, Anheuser Busch, had decided to change the development plan and made him re-route four holes to accommodate the houses.  He thought the change ruined the flow of the course, but the more he tried to fight it, the more the client dug in their heels.


Pete said it was in a period where there wasn't much work out there, so he went ahead and finished the course their way, but he had always regretted that.  He told me [at an impressionable age 20] that if you were really serious about your craft, you always had to be willing to walk away from a project if the client wouldn't let you do the right thing.


Of course, Pete never had to worry about "feeding his family", and if I'm giving the impression he was rigid in his thinking, that's dead wrong -- he would use a good idea from anyone.  But he did joust with the clients from Long Cove about what he was doing, on a weekly basis.  ["I want to put a back tee in across the road on 12."  "Pete, there's a lot there."  "Well, I will buy the lot."  "We've already got you down for eight of them!"]  And they were a little bit afraid of him, because there weren't a lot of plans for the course, so it was going to be hard to finish it if Pete walked away.  That was probably not the best dynamic for a 20-year-old to model, but it did teach me to ask questions, push back, and keep trying to make the golf course better.


As to refusing a request, the simplest way is to say I need time to think about it, and then come back to it later.  Of course, if I just blow off their idea, I'm risking that they'll come back and change it themselves after I'm gone, so if I'm going to say no, I'd better convince them I have a good reason. 


I've always had a hard time saying no to people -- it's an issue for many with ACA -- but it took me years to learn how to deflect such things.  When I was younger, I would kind of freeze, wanting to avoid a conflict and not knowing what to say, but it would come across as the "death stare" which some have described.  I guess I have a very bad poker face!

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: How Important Are an Owner’s Design Requests?
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2022, 09:56:53 AM »


I think almost every course I did had a special request.  Early in my career, and not long after TPC got famous, it was of course, island greens, which really don't work all that well for most courses, both being too difficult and having walk on and walk off problems.



So, how many island greens did you build?


Just one, about 4 years into my career and on one of my earliest designs.  Not sure what the % of reasons are - Me standing up vs. the island green fad fading a bit.  The one I built had a narrow land bridge, not an actual bridge, because the budget was so low.  That always kind of blew the look of island greens to me.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark_Fine

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Re: How Influential Are an Owner’s Design Requests?
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2022, 05:37:16 PM »

Jeff,
I have only build one island green as well and it was at the request of the owners but it was a rebuild of an original island green that was lost in a flood  (the 17th hole at Waynesboro CC in Waynesboro, PA)  :)


I, along with most other no name architects  ;)  consider the committees that we work with at private clubs “the owners” and any architect that does restorations/renovations/redesigns knows those committees/owners can be very influential.  And to a large extent they should be as it is their club and their asset and they know their members (we hope) as well as anyone.  When the project is finished, it will be the members who are left with playing and maintaining the golf course that we have just changed so they better buy into what has been done with their money.  That said, the best committees (owners) know what they know and what they don’t know.  As has been stated earlier, there is usually a good reason why they are talking to an architect in the first place.  Yes sometimes it is just to provide cover for their own ideas but most times I have found it is because they truly want knowledgable help and guidance to do what is best for their club/golf course.  The best architects are good listeners and while they might not use every and/or very few ideas from the “owners”, they will have at least listened and explain why not. 

Tom_Doak

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Re: How Influential Are an Owner’s Design Requests?
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2022, 08:39:22 PM »

I, along with most other no name architects  ;)  consider the committees that we work with at private clubs “the owners” and any architect that does restorations/renovations/redesigns knows those committees/owners can be very influential.


Very different dynamic, IMO.  Much more political, less room to be creative.

Jim_Coleman

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Re: How Influential Are an Owner’s Design Requests?
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2022, 10:25:07 PM »
   Totally agree Tom. I suspect that, more often than not, the architect sees only the tip of the political iceberg when dealing with a restoration/renovation.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: How Influential Are an Owner’s Design Requests?
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2022, 03:07:04 AM »
Agree. Committee's are often very difficult to work with. One of more of them has decided what is going to happen. You are there to carry out their idea. It is often just a case of when 'the argument' is going to happen. It is probably better to have the argument on the first day.
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Kyle Harris

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Re: How Influential Are an Owner’s Design Requests?
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2022, 04:45:39 AM »
100%


Their first design request is for the golf course, after all.
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Thomas Dai

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Re: How Influential Are an Owner’s Design Requests?
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2022, 05:02:05 AM »
I raised a thread a while ago at about the hardest aspects of an architects job. I recall relationships with clients being mentioned (amongst a few others).
Atb