An insightful discussion of who Tom Doak the person is.

[Jim_Coleman]

    I found Tom’s discussion of #17 at Tara Iti interesting. He built a hole he was very proud of, and changed it at the request of the owner. What I wonder is, how often does an owner’s preferences (other than budget and other economic issues) influence a design?  I know Tom didn’t say he didn’t like the Tara Iti change, but would an architect design something at an owner’s request even if he felt his idea was preferable?

[John Kavanaugh]

I’m more concerned about why we perceive someone to be an asshole rather than if they are one.


Watching an interview with Weiskopf makes me wonder why I let “them” get away with it.

[Mike_Young]

I’m more concerned about why we perceive someone to be an asshole rather than if they are one.


Watching an interview with Weiskopf makes me wonder why I let “them” get away with it.

I have not listened yet but I was thinking the same thing.  The easiest way to be perceived as an asshole(IMHO) is to not agree with everything some dude is wanting you to agree with.  So many club committees would have been much better off if they had hired the "asshole" that interviewed instead of the dude that would do as they say and spent $10,000 grand on a presentation.  That's why the really high net worth owners ( if they made their own money) are easy to work for....they know that and BS quit impressing them a long time ago.  As for Weiskopf, I was around him some when he was building Harbor Club.  I really liked the guy and the people that considered him an asshole were the ones where he called out their BS. 
Didn't he jump Kuchar's dad once when he was caddying for him and marked the ball with a quarter or something? 

[Adam_Messix]

Mike--


Tom Weiskopf got heated with the then reigning US Senior Amateur Champion Jim Stahl at the 1996 US Senior Open at Canterbury when they were paired together.  You are correct in that it was regarding Stahl using a quarter to mark his ball.  I met Jim on several occasions, and he was a great guy and a true gentleman. 


The Peter Kuchar incident involved Justin Leonard at the 1998 US Open at Olympic. 


I listened to the podcast and found it enjoyable and enlightening.  I think if everyone realized that no one's perfect, the world would be a happier place. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Who thinks anyone is perfect besides themselves?

[Jim Franklin]

Very enjoyable listen.


Funny, Tom met a few of my friends at Stonewall a couple of years ago in the bar. Somehow my name came up and Tom responds, "I know Jim Franklin. We aren't friends. He loves my course in Montana." (or something to that effect) My boys got a kick out of that and let me know any chance they get. Tom was not wrong. I love Rock Creek.

[Jim_Coleman]

Mike--


Tom Weiskopf got heated with the then reigning US Senior Amateur Champion Jim Stahl at the 1996 US Senior Open at Canterbury when they were paired together.  You are correct in that it was regarding Stahl using a quarter to mark his ball.  I met Jim on several occasions, and he was a great guy and a true gentleman. 


The Peter Kuchar incident involved Justin Leonard at the 1998 US Open at Olympic. 


I listened to the podcast and found it enjoyable and enlightening.  I think if everyone realized that no one's perfect, the world would be a happier place.

   I remember the quarter story being about Weiskopf and Joel Hirsch. Funny how memory is so unreliable. I can’t count the times I have thought I remembered something and was wrong.

[Tom_Doak]

Funny, Tom met a few of my friends at Stonewall a couple of years ago in the bar. Somehow my name came up and Tom responds, "I know Jim Franklin. We aren't friends. He loves my course in Montana." (or something to that effect) My boys got a kick out of that and let me know any chance they get. Tom was not wrong. I love Rock Creek.

Jim:


That’s a good story because it illustrates my conundrum.  If that were Bill Coore or Gil Hanse your friends had met, their expectations would be different, and it just wouldn’t get reported back to you the same way.  But most people, having read all the bs that they’ve read, assume I have an edge and interpret everything I say in that light instead.


Thankfully the majority of people don’t recognize me or know who I am, and I can have a drink with them or play nine holes and they just think I’m a nice guy.  I kind of don’t want to introduce myself, because my (golf business) persona precedes me.


I’ve never minded being labeled as “controversial,” I see that as a good thing.  Mr Dye said at the TPC in 1982, “Golf is a controversial game and I’m glad to be part of it.”

[Steve Lang]

   So TD, Do any of your personal tastes lead you to Round's or Potter's or Paesano's or Mode's or Boone's in TC?  Inquiring minds want to know, and if any investors would be sought to aid the rebirth of High Pointe?

[archie_struthers]

 


Played with Tom a couple times most notably at Lost Dunes in Michigan, which is a cool place    We had fun talked a lot of golf and he appreciated my experiences caddying for some of the great players and architects themselves when I was young. I was struck by his interest in how various levels of player approached the game and particular shots. To me that's an integral part of being a great GCA. We both laughed heartily when I recounted how Pete Dye found this old hollowed out bunker way out of play left on #6 at PVGC and at 60  years old was enjoying jumping around in it like a little kid.


On a personal level we still chat on occasion and it has been a pleasure for me !  We had a mutual friend who died too young and it has been a glue in our relationship. We both share memories of Tom McCarthy , who worked in the shop with me at Pine Valley and  worked with Tom building Riverfront GC . Tommy Mac was a Notre Dame guy, which neither Tom or I held against him. He got me an invite from Tom D to the Renaissance Cup that year in Michigan. It's a great memory of mine.


I'm still laughing to myself thinking of our walk around Twisted Dune in it's raw state.  Famous up and coming architect spent the time to visit and see the giant sandbox we built. To this day don't know if he liked it or just thought I was nuts , or both      might have been one of the few times he couldn't fashion an opinion lol

[John Kavanaugh]

If you look in between an acquaintance and a friend you might find a buddy.

[archie_struthers]

 


Good one JAKA

[George Pazin]

Please forgive my ignorance as a low level golfer, but what is wrong with marking a ball with a quarter?


There is nothing as unreliable as people's memories of events and interactions. I've lost track of how many times I was sitting in a meeting, get together, whatever, and came away with a completely different recollection of said meeting, get together, whatever, than someone else who was in the same meeting.....

[John Kavanaugh]

Please forgive my ignorance as a low level golfer, but what is wrong with marking a ball with a quarter?

They are a gateway to poker chips.

[Anthony Butler]

I met Tom Doak in the pro-shop at Crystal Downs one afternoon. He seemed surprised to see me - even though he had invited me for a round about two weeks prior.

He quickly started needing me about my inconsistent game... And continued doing so even when I started playing better. e.g. When I drove about 285 yds down the middle of the 11th, he quickly assessed that "I was the third longest Australian on that hole, after Adam Scott and Ian Baker-Finch."

He took great pleasure in the fact I double-bogeyed the signature 17th hole and seemed disappointed by the fact I scratched out a par on 18 despite never seeing the fairway or the green in anything close to regulation.

I, on the other hand, took great pleasure in the fact the barman at the clubhouse insisted on putting my two beers on his tab despite the fact I offered him cash.

That said, we both seem to like many of the same things and dislike the same people including TFG and Greg Norman.

I think his reputation as perhaps the premier architect of our times is likely deserved... he seems to know everything there is to know about golf course design and construction. His knowledge can really only be compared to people like Martin Scorcese or the Coen Brothers in terms of being both a practitioner and a student in his field of endeavor.

[John Kavanaugh]

From butt boy to buddy in the blink of an eye.

[Jim Franklin]

Funny, Tom met a few of my friends at Stonewall a couple of years ago in the bar. Somehow my name came up and Tom responds, "I know Jim Franklin. We aren't friends. He loves my course in Montana." (or something to that effect) My boys got a kick out of that and let me know any chance they get. Tom was not wrong. I love Rock Creek.

Jim:


That’s a good story because it illustrates my conundrum.  If that were Bill Coore or Gil Hanse your friends had met, their expectations would be different, and it just wouldn’t get reported back to you the same way.  But most people, having read all the bs that they’ve read, assume I have an edge and interpret everything I say in that light instead.


Thankfully the majority of people don’t recognize me or know who I am, and I can have a drink with them or play nine holes and they just think I’m a nice guy.  I kind of don’t want to introduce myself, because my (golf business) persona precedes me.


I’ve never minded being labeled as “controversial,” I see that as a good thing.  Mr Dye said at the TPC in 1982, “Golf is a controversial game and I’m glad to be part of it.”

Tom -


I had no problem with your description. My friends really enjoyed talking with you. We all agree you are a top architect. My opinion did not change. We have never met, but have communicated electronically. Does that make us friends? Not really. It makes us friendly maybe. I am just happy I can say you know who I am. Lol. And Rock Creek is still my favorite course.


It is all good. Keep doing you. No regrets. By the way, I was a '61 baby and now 61 as well. So we have that in common.

[George Pazin]

Please forgive my ignorance as a low level golfer, but what is wrong with marking a ball with a quarter?

They are a gateway to poker chips.

Ok. I generally use two markers - a quarter if I'm not near anyone's line, and a dime if I am. The quarter is just easier to see, and I'm 55 and having trouble spotting dimes.

[Kalen Braley]

Please forgive my ignorance as a low level golfer, but what is wrong with marking a ball with a quarter?

They are a gateway to poker chips.

Ok. I generally use two markers - a quarter if I'm not near anyone's line, and a dime if I am. The quarter is just easier to see, and I'm 55 and having trouble spotting dimes.

Its all good George, this is a complete nothing burger, I use a quarter too...and its just as easy to move it as anything else.

[Tom_Doak]

I met Tom Doak in the pro-shop at Crystal Downs one afternoon. He seemed surprised to see me - even though he had invited me for a round about two weeks prior.

He quickly started needing me about my inconsistent game... And continued doing so even when I started playing better. e.g. When I drove about 285 yds down the middle of the 11th, he quickly assessed that "I was the third longest Australian on that hole, after Adam Scott and Ian Baker-Finch."

He took great pleasure in the fact I double-bogeyed the signature 17th hole and seemed disappointed by the fact I scratched out a par on 18 despite never seeing the fairway or the green in anything close to regulation.

I, on the other hand, took great pleasure in the fact the barman at the clubhouse insisted on putting my two beers on his tab despite the fact I offered him cash.

So, how many other architects have taken the time to host you at their home club?  Did Gil Hanse take you to Fishers Island?


I have done that for at least 100 people over the years whom I only knew from the internet, because Crystal Downs is a special place and I like to help people get to see it.


Also the 11th is a par-3, Adam Scott has never been to the Downs (although Clayts and Finchy have played there with me), and you can’t get a beer in the clubhouse on your own, as far as I’m aware.

[astavrides]

Please forgive my ignorance as a low level golfer, but what is wrong with marking a ball with a quarter?

They are a gateway to poker chips.

Ok. I generally use two markers - a quarter if I'm not near anyone's line, and a dime if I am. The quarter is just easier to see, and I'm 55 and having trouble spotting dimes.

Its all good George, this is a complete nothing burger, I use a quarter too...and its just as easy to move it as anything else.

I don't know why everyone (except on tour where I think it's not allowed) doesn't use white markers that stick into the ground. Easy to see and flat. I always feel like a pain in the ass if I ask someone to move their coin. Pennies are very hard to see and poker chips might as well be manhole covers.
I assume it's cause not enough places sell or give away white flat markers (which can be logo'ed), but maybe there is another good reason why people don't use them.


Anyhow, I don't want to divert the thread. The interview with Doak was very good. To me, Tom came off very candid and frank and like a good guy.

[Mark Mammel]

My 2c. The whole kerfluffle about Tom and whether or not he is an asshole- or the greatest guy around- stems from the fact that his talents have made him very well know in golf circles around the world. The problem with notoriety is that everyone thinks that a) they know you well enough to have an opinion and b) someone else cares about their opinion. I first met Tom at White Bear Yacht  Club in the mid-90s when he was still getting known and was able to work at old clubs who were figuring out what they were and what they wanted to be. I was a young, ignorant golf chair who had read a bunch of architecture books and pushed hard to get Tom to the club. When we met, I was excited to present to him a partial copy of the original typewritten Confidential Guide, which I had gotten my hands on from another friend also not on the original mailing list. I asked him to sign it- and he said "Where did you get that?" I explained, and he said something to the effect of "I didn't send it to you so no." Initially taken aback, I had to laugh. The next time he came to the club,  he had self-published the Guide in the brownish hard cover version, which I had bought as soon as it came out. I brought my copy and again presented it and asked if he would sign this one. He laughed and replied "You bet- you got it legitimately!" I'm happy to say that Tom, then working with Jim Urbina, helped raise our consciousness about what exactly we had and why we should invest in its preservation and improvement. We have.

I have done my best to support the expanding Doak library since then.

[Don Mahaffey]

I just listen to the pod while driving an hour and a half from taking my youngest son to a baseball tournament.


I've worked some with Tom and have always marveled at his design mind as I never see what he sees. At Dismal River I couldn't in a million years see the holes where he put them until we built them. At Memorial Park I remain amazed at how a course can be so challenging for the best players and so fun for the masses.


Personally, I think of Tom as someone who made much of my career possible. I had the drive, and I'd like to think the ability, but getting breaks isn't easy in this dog eat dog business, especially in the time period when I caught my first one from Tom. I do believe that he saw that drive and ability in me, and I think he has a knack for matching individuals with the right situation for success. I've seen him welcome so many up and comers, happy to share knowledge but seeming always also letting them know they better be damn persistent if they wanted to make a living in golf.


Tom's comment in the pod about Gil telling a writer that Tom is misunderstood but the writer not using it is about how it is.


I've worked with a bunch of architects, and many are insecure and highly critical of their competitors. In my experience with Tom he isn't like that at all, which flies in the face of the reputation he got from the confidential guide. And for someone who is supposed to be hard to work with, he is very open to ideas from just about anyone.


I think as we age we begin to understand what has shaped us. I do think that a lot of what may have brought us challenges, has also given us positive attributes that helped make us successful, and maybe added some focus that helps us not get too concerned about impressing everyone we meet along the way.

[Ian Andrew]

Being blunt comes with some risks. It can create perceptions that the person does not intend. While their answer or interactions may be open and honest, it can be read differently by the person receiving them. In most instances the initial negative reaction is easily overcome with more interaction. This creates a deeper understanding of the blunt personality and provides the tools to adapt to the style. Being blunt can have some great advantages, but it does hurt some feelings along the way too. If someone doesn't like the style, they are more likely to label you as difficult and share that opinion with others.

[Mark Smolens]

I don't know Mr. Doak very well, having met on one occasion at the Mashie he hosted at Lost Dunes, and a few years later during a tour of his not yet completed course at Dismal River, at a 5th Major. I had of course read "about" him prior to the event, and had no idea what to expect. His after-dinner presentation and Q and A session was awesome, as was the couple of hours sitting around the living room table in the cabin thereafter (highlighted by his stories about the dangers of ticks and Lyme's disease -- followed closely by my spotting and picking a tick off his golf shirt!). I found him to be engaging, and willing to share his insights on gca to (in my case at least) a bunch of know-nothings. It was very cool to see him running over to the guy in bobcat shaping the 18th green at Dismal on the second portion of our tour. I look forward to getting back there some day to see how the course has grown in.


I also very much enjoy his (and our other gcas) participation on this discussion board -- the inside baseball that we as a group are blessed with is imo very cool.