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Jerry Kluger

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An insightful discussion of who Tom Doak the person is.
« on: August 24, 2022, 04:12:10 PM »
Tom has given an interview where he goes far beyond architecture and goes into who Tom Doak the man really is.  Not many successful people have opened up the way Tom has in this interview and it really comes down to the fact that he is an imperfect person which we all are but few come out so candidly and admit it.  It is worth the time to listen to it and I have attached the link which I hope is available even if you are not a subscriber to The Golfers Journal. 
https://www.golfersjournal.com/editorial/you-dont-know-doak/?utm_source=The+Golfer%27s+Journal&utm_campaign=3b0269579a-PodEp115-08242022&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_de397cb05c-3b0269579a-84679309

Steve_Roths

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Re: An insightful discussion of who Tom Doak the person is.
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2022, 05:39:53 PM »
Incredible podcast.  Just open and honest.  Great listen.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: An insightful discussion of who Tom Doak the person is.
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2022, 10:49:03 PM »
I made it through 15 minutes. Can’t wait to play Boo Hoo Dunes.




Steve Lang

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Re: An insightful discussion of who Tom Doak the person is.
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2022, 11:30:27 PM »
 8)  Interesting listen ...   I made it through the whole thing, though I was multi-tasking...

 Met TD and hiked the front 9 at Memorial Park with him and Mike Nuzzo one day while they were finishing things and my take-away was "focused and keeping it real."   If he'd come to my workplace or workspace I'd hope he'd have the same thought. 

First and most extensive TD exposure was Black Forest as summer home course from its build to closure, followed by High Pointe also from build to closure (hope the zoning gets revised on the east side, I'd invest in that Project!)

also played: Ballyneal, Pacific Dunes, Old Mac, Dismal River - Red, Rawls, Streamsong Blue, The Loop, Memorial Park...   take-aways always seem to be I could learn more about the design stuff and my game, let's play it again, there's unfinished business.  No strong complaints from this amatuer  and some real good memories, what more could you ask?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2022, 08:32:14 AM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

David_Tepper

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Re: An insightful discussion of who Tom Doak the person is.
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2022, 02:08:25 AM »

Tom_Doak

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Re: An insightful discussion of who Tom Doak the person is.
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2022, 10:32:24 AM »
The impetus for doing that interview with Tom Coyne was an exchange we'd had the year before.  Someone had sent me a copy of his book "A Course Called America", and in reading through his write-up of The Loop at Forest Dunes, he prefaced it with this paragraph:


"I wanted to nitpick and find the course inferior to Hixson's two-way in Oregon.  Dan had been such a gracious host and playing partner, while I had reservations about Tom Doak.  'Socially remote' would be a politic way to sum up what I'd been told about his demeanor, but he was given a pass for being aloof because he was golf's wunderkind.  I was less convinced, and preferred Bob Ford's 'It's nice to be important, but it's important to be nice' perspective.  But then I played The Loop, and I found myself reconfiguring my thoughts on Doak.  Dammit, he was a genius.  And plenty of savants have rubbed people the wrong way."




I thought that was a bit strong, from someone who had never actually met me or even reached out to me for an interview.  I even reached out to a writer I know, a fan of Mr. Coyne's work, to ask him if he didn't think that was a little overboard, and the response was that it was really out of line, and whoever he'd spoken to about me must really hate me for some reason.


So, I reached out to Mr. Coyne, and we talked about it at length, and found that maybe we had some things in common.  And I thought that maybe we should talk about some of those things on his podcast, since they affect so many people.  I would guess, based on recent experiences and conversations, that as many as 25-50% of adults have trouble dealing with emotional issues that go back to some family history of alcoholism.  Whether your parents were raging drunks [which mine were not] or teetotalers or religious zealots [which mine were not], or somewhere in between, they might well be that way because they're afraid of being like their parents, and they still have many of the behaviors they learned as kids to avoid trouble -- things like isolating themselves, struggling with authority figures, perfectionism, and other addictive behaviors.  [It is much more complex than that, of course; I'm just giving you a taste of it to see if you can relate.]


Certainly I didn't do the podcast because I want anyone to feel sorry for me.  Golfers care mostly about the work I've done, and some of these personality traits have led directly to a lot of my success in writing and design, even as they have caused struggle for me and for others around me.  Many people with similar issues are afraid of what others think of them and go out of their way to please everyone.  I was the opposite somehow; I came of age kind of expecting other people not to like me, so there was no point worrying about what they thought.


Unfortunately, there are only a handful of writers who know enough about golf architecture to write about the work, so they try to write about us as people instead, based on very limited interactions [or even NO interaction, in the above example].  And most architects are happy to sell their product that way, via a mutual, insincere flattery.  Honestly, I'd prefer to remain misunderstood, if that's the only other option.   ;)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An insightful discussion of who Tom Doak the person is.
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2022, 10:47:34 AM »
I'm an alcoholic parent of adult children so I don't want to make lite of the situation. Does anyone believe Mr. Coyne picked up 10 yds carry with the new driver he is advertising?


jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An insightful discussion of who Tom Doak the person is.
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2022, 11:26:49 AM »
I'm an alcoholic parent of adult children so I don't want to make lite of the situation. Does anyone believe Mr. Coyne picked up 10 yds carry with the new driver he is advertising?


LOL
 Tom C's my guest Saturday.
that was the first thing i was going to ask him(7 mph ball speed?)
I would've thought it was from his lesson two weeks ago, but alas, his new driver gets the credit.


Then again, if actually true about the driver, even more depressing. ;) ;D


I thought it was a fantastic interview.
I've been very fortunate to have many interactions with Tom D-some professional, some personal, some on the radio which is something I really appreciate him making time for.
All were extremely positive and informative(some were quite frank and that made them even more useful), and Tom has always been an extremely gracious host at events surrounding the RC.


 ;) ;D [size=78%]I have no idea if my Sqairz make me hit it farther, but they are comfortable and stable-especially on sidehill/unstable stance lies.But then they don't pay me-they pay McLean and I often do his reads in his absence. (I do wear them and I do have 2 free pairs)[/size]



« Last Edit: August 25, 2022, 01:34:06 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An insightful discussion of who Tom Doak the person is.
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2022, 11:53:21 AM »
Very humanizing interview.  I hope that it results in dispelling the difficult savant reputation that became a caricature.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An insightful discussion of who Tom Doak the person is.
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2022, 12:16:48 PM »
Very humanizing interview.  I hope that it results in dispelling the difficult savant reputation that became a caricature.


In other words, if you love the Doak you know don’t listen. Before I ever met Tom my brother told me that Doak has a quick wit that bites but is funny as hell. Something celebrity no longer allows.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: An insightful discussion of who Tom Doak the person is.
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2022, 02:49:43 PM »
Very humanizing interview.  I hope that it results in dispelling the difficult savant reputation that became a caricature.


In other words, if you love the Doak you know don’t listen. Before I ever met Tom my brother told me that Doak has a quick wit that bites but is funny as hell. Something celebrity no longer allows.




Yes, if you actually have spent more than ten minutes with me, you don't need to listen to a profile to find out what I'm like.  That probably already goes for most people here, as well.  You've seen enough of me to have formed your own opinion [and that's all it is, your best guess].


And you are right that it is difficult in the modern world for anyone in the public eye to have a sense of humor.  It's too easy for it to be misinterpreted or deemed "wrong".


Peter Pallotta

Re: An insightful discussion of who Tom Doak the person is.
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2022, 03:07:33 PM »
"Art enables us to find ourselves and lose ourselves at the same time" -- Thomas Merton

« Last Edit: August 25, 2022, 07:10:36 PM by PPallotta »

Tim_Weiman

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Re: An insightful discussion of who Tom Doak the person is.
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2022, 08:11:41 PM »
Very humanizing interview.  I hope that it results in dispelling the difficult savant reputation that became a caricature.


Peter,


I’ve known Tom Doak for almost twenty five years and never bought into the “asshole” narrative. We first met at a traditionalgolf.com get together at Crystal Downs. This was before GolfCubAtlas.com and Tom was gracious enough to do a slide show for the group.

Tom’s knowledge and passion for golf architecture was obvious. One could see it then, even before the success and fame that came with Pacific Dunes and other projects that followed. The group, which included passionate golf architecture junkies like Dick Daley from Green Bay, really appreciated the effort Tom made to make this golf get together more enjoyable.

Anyway, a few years later, GolfClubAtlas.com came into existence and somewhere around 2000 I created a thread that was motivated by my memory of playing the 9th hole at Whitemarsh Valley almost twenty years before. In the thread, I commented that golf courses keep getting bigger and longer and suggested someone should buck the trend by building something really small, specifically a Par Three of 100 yards or less.

My recollection is that those who responded to my thread weren’t very enthusiastic about my suggestion to build “a little devil”. Tom was amongst those who posted and his input was that it would be tough to get a client to buy into the idea.

Well, four to five years went by before I found myself at Barnbougle Dunes for Tom’s annual Renaissance Cup. For the first round, I had the pleasure of playing with Jonathon McCleery from Melbourne who, if I remember correctly, was an investor in the project.

After playing the long and difficult 6th hole, I walked to an “oh my god” moment. There it was. There was “a little devil”, Barnbougle’s 7th. And, it was better than anything I had imagined. To say that I was giddy for the rest of the round would be an understatement.

But, I wasn’t prepared for what happened next. Tom approached me after the round and with a big smile and said “so, how do you like your hole?”.

It was a part of Tom not seen or generally known. It was the opposite of the “asshole” narrative.


Tim Weiman

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An insightful discussion of who Tom Doak the person is.
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2022, 07:57:48 AM »
Very humanizing interview.  I hope that it results in dispelling the difficult savant reputation that became a caricature.




After playing the long and difficult 6th hole, I walked to an “oh my god” moment. There it was. There was “a little devil”, Barnbougle’s 7th. And, it was better than anything I had imagined. To say that I was giddy for the rest of the round would be an understatement.

But, I wasn’t prepared for what happened next. Tom approached me after the round and with a big smile and said “so, how do you like your hole?”.

It was a part of Tom not seen or generally known. It was the opposite of the “asshole” narrative.





Very cool.
I doubled it, so going forward I will stop hating Tom for it, and move on to blaming you. ;)


I happened to be playing with Tom, literally just stumbled on each other, and he couldn't have been more gracious in his tour of the front nine.
I'd like to think he might've enjoyed my double there, but no doubt he's seen many disasters there by now, and I'm pretty sure the other doubles I made that day made that particular double less special.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2022, 07:59:50 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

George Pazin

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Re: An insightful discussion of who Tom Doak the person is.
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2022, 08:54:32 AM »
Nice listen, thanks for sharing the link. And thanks all for the stories shared.


I suspect Tom's "problems" early on with his reputation were really more the problems of those hiring him. Almost by definition, golf course ownership is a wealthy person's game. You don't generally get to that level of financial success without having a strong ego, and many/most of these individuals simply think they know everything.


My wife always say, well, you think you know everything. And I always respond, no, I KNOW I know everything, there's a difference. :)


But we both know I'm kidding. My repeated failures in the business world have hammered humility into me better than any Marine Corps drill sergeant...
« Last Edit: August 26, 2022, 09:28:18 AM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An insightful discussion of who Tom Doak the person is.
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2022, 09:32:00 AM »
 8) Hey George,


You indirectly bring up a very important thought... a spouse may a strong force in helping one laugh at oneself and staying real & humble!


Ms Sheila says hi... been a while since the Land of Enchantment outing  ;D
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An insightful discussion of who Tom Doak the person is.
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2022, 09:50:07 AM »
True indeed, although I've been laughing at myself for just over 55 years now. She doesn't like when I poke fun at myself in front of others, but she doesn't have my strong ego... :)


Tell Ms. Shelia I said hi. Maybe I'll make it down to Houston one day.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: An insightful discussion of who Tom Doak the person is.
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2022, 10:13:47 AM »

I suspect Tom's "problems" early on with his reputation were really more the problems of those hiring him. Almost by definition, golf course ownership is a wealthy person's game. You don't generally get to that level of financial success without having a strong ego, and many/most of these individuals simply think they know everything.

My wife always say, well, you think you know everything. And I always respond, no, I KNOW I know everything, there's a difference. :)



Hi George:


Your point about the rich guys is certainly oversimplified.  I have dealt with a lot of very wealthy people over my career, and most of them are pretty straightforward.  They seem to be the least likely people to be concerned that I'm "difficult".  I'd bet that some have heard that same label about themselves, so they take it with a grain of salt.  They are mostly very direct in their communications and don't rely on intermediaries.  In fact, the majority of my conflicts over the years [which are not as many as people think] have come when there was a middle man who was not accurately communicating between me and the client, or with more "corporate" clients who insist on a long chain of command.


You are 100% right though that one's wife will sort out one's ego right quick.

George Pazin

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Re: An insightful discussion of who Tom Doak the person is.
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2022, 10:19:15 AM »

I suspect Tom's "problems" early on with his reputation were really more the problems of those hiring him. Almost by definition, golf course ownership is a wealthy person's game. You don't generally get to that level of financial success without having a strong ego, and many/most of these individuals simply think they know everything.

My wife always say, well, you think you know everything. And I always respond, no, I KNOW I know everything, there's a difference. :)



Hi George:


Your point about the rich guys is certainly oversimplified.  I have dealt with a lot of very wealthy people over my career, and most of them are pretty straightforward.  They seem to be the least likely people to be concerned that I'm "difficult".  I'd bet that some have heard that same label about themselves, so they take it with a grain of salt.  They are mostly very direct in their communications and don't rely on intermediaries.  In fact, the majority of my conflicts over the years [which are not as many as people think] have come when there was a middle man who was not accurately communicating between me and the client, or with more "corporate" clients who insist on a long chain of command.


You are 100% right though that one's wife will sort out one's ego right quick.


That's great to hear, happy to be wrong. You know better rich people than I do, apparently. :)


(That is a joke, for anyone offended. Most of my college friends are fantastically successful, and none the worse for it. My observation earlier is based on a lifetime of exposure to driven, highly capable, mostly financially successful people. Feel free to disagree.  :) [size=78%])[/size]
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

John Kavanaugh

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Re: An insightful discussion of who Tom Doak the person is.
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2022, 02:51:09 PM »
Edit: Wrong thread
« Last Edit: August 26, 2022, 04:01:41 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Mike Sweeney

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Re: An insightful discussion of who Tom Doak the person is.
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2022, 05:14:37 PM »
Tom,


Really great not-golf + golf interview. Both you and Tom Coyne have led interesting lives in golf.


Looking forward to hopefully seeing one of your coastal courses, Saint Pat's, next season.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: An insightful discussion of who Tom Doak the person is.
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2022, 05:18:27 PM »
They are mostly very direct in their communications and don't rely on intermediaries.
This, and how personally many take the opinions of others, are leading causes of "that guy is an asshole."
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An insightful discussion of who Tom Doak the person is.
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2022, 03:25:45 PM »
I remember when we had a GCA get together at Bandon Dunes for the opening of Old Macdonald and George Bahto was there and couldn't wait to show Ran the course and Tom was there speaking at dinner.  After dinner we retired to the bar area and I happened to strike up a conversation with Tom and he couldn't have been more gracious spending quite a bit of time with a guy who had so much to learn about gca.  Its funny that the next time I saw him was in the restroom of the clubhouse at Streamsong not long after it opened and he laughingly asked me not to say anything to the group as he was there with his wife to show her the course and didn't want to be pulled away from spending the time with her.  I would say that his reputation so far as I was concerned was far different from some others who perhaps dealt with him while he was working at his trade. In any event I would commend him for recognizing any issues he might have had and trying his best to better relate to people.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: An insightful discussion of who Tom Doak the person is.
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2022, 07:04:30 PM »
Pretty brave of you to put yourself out there like that Tom.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An insightful discussion of who Tom Doak the person is.
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2022, 01:10:38 AM »
Just listened to this. Awesome stuff.


Regarding Coyne's 7 mph ball speed gain, he made no mention of the driver he was replacing. What was it, a Burner Bubble from '98? A Cleveland VAS uber offset from '93? A Wood Bros. Texan from '78? Everything's relative.


I guess the juciest tidbit for me was further smoke around the HP resurrection.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon