What is the threshold for greatness in golf courses?

[mike_malone]

I don’t mean the pinnacle where courses like Pine Valley reside but maybe where Yale or North Berwick fit.


Is it all about feel or are their standards that must be met?


When does a course go from very good to great?

[John Kavanaugh]

When it is expensive and some douche bag with ten fingers gets comped. Or the good Dr. designed it and and it's a short drive from true greatness. Or it's in a region experiencing a drought with a great superintendent.


I personally see so much more greatness than most because the weather follows me and I only play with interesting people. Plus the veil that blocks greatness was lifted from my vision when I turned 60. it's not wisdom, it's...

[cary lichtenstein]

It's like art, when the New York Times critics declare it so.

[John Kavanaugh]

The scenario I don’t understand is Rustic. As the architect is recognized for greatness the course loses favor with critics.


It must be the Fazio conundrum.

[George Pazin]

As long as the golfer is asked to keep score, I'm inclined to believe defining greatness is impossible.


I think the best you can do is look for people whose opinions reflect your own thinking, and use that to guide your adventures.


I think most golfers miss what is important. Most readers probably miss what writers' intend, and most viewer's probably miss what painters' intend, but in golf, it is compounded by that score thing.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I think most golfers miss what is important. Most readers probably miss what writers' intend, and most viewer's probably miss what painters' intend, but in golf, it is compounded by that score thing.

I discovered long ago it applies to sermons as well. Many miss what I have intended. They will pick up one thought then finish the sermon themselves in their head. When I discovered that I was fine with it, as long as it was either comforting or challenging to them.

[cary lichtenstein]

How does it fit your game? I remember being invited to a member guest at a course where the trees on the right side of the fairway substantially invaded the fairway. I always drew the ball, couldn't move it left to right. I hated the course, it didn't fit my eye or game.

[George Pazin]

Tommy, have you ever compiled your sermons into a written document? I'd buy that.


That's definitely a problem as well, Cary.


If I were a betting man, I'd guess JohnK's Rustic example is a fitting one. I'd guess most either shoot a good score and think the width, etc, isn't necessary and doesn't provide sufficient challenge, or they shoot a higher score than they "should" and can't figure out why.

[mike_malone]

While I love Rustic Canyon I don’t see it crossing my greatness threshold.


 But it can be argued that it’s great.


   Interesting presentation
     It has this for sure.


   Variety
      Check


    Sense of place
        Check




It may just not have the challenge needed to reach greatness.


 


     

[Tom_Doak]

It may just not have the challenge needed to reach greatness.

This has been the biggest hang-up about great courses since I've been in the business -- better players saying a course is "not elite" because it doesn't have enough 440-yard par-4's.


Is this really a deal breaker for a great course? 


Well, do you dismiss Cypress Point and North Berwick and Fishers Island because they are not tough enough?  If you do, I feel sorry for you, but that's your right, because greatness is subjective.

[mike_malone]

It may just not have the challenge needed to reach greatness.

This has been the biggest hang-up about great courses since I've been in the business -- better players saying a course is "not elite" because it doesn't have enough 440-yard par-4's.


Is this really a deal breaker for a great course? 


Well, do you dismiss Cypress Point and North Berwick and Fishers Island because they are not tough enough?  If you do, I feel sorry for you, but that's your right, because greatness is subjective.

I’m not talking of penal features. North Berwick has plenty of challenges. Those are things you must overcome that test either your talent or your decision making. The Pit and the Redan are just two holes where you can’t just hit it straight.

[Sean_A]

Greatness is over-rated.

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

I don’t see how Rustic can be overrated. Greatness in land use, value and accessibility.

[John Kirk]

Greatness is over-rated.

Ciao

I disagree, or I would change this statement to "Greatness is too often assigned, and rarely achieved".

The key is design innovation, feeling as though you are playing something unique, exciting and/or different.  For whatever reason, I thought of the 9th hole at Pacific Dunes first.  Especially when you play to the lower green, that hole is unusual.  You have to drive the ball to carry the imposing wall of sandstone to reach the fairway, which slopes down rather sharply to the small, undulating green.  I don't know if it's still there, but there used to be a little gorse bush guarding the left side of the green.  In the summer, the two shots are playing decisively downwind. Those are two exciting and unusual shots.  It's hard to get the distance right on the second shot, downwind from a downhill lie.
By the way, I like the lower green at Pacific Dunes #9 way better than the upper green.  I think the hole is far more interesting played that way.  You also get the bonus of playing the 10th hole from the lower tee.


That's one reason why North Berwick is so great.  You just see stuff that is new and exciting and challenging.  It grabs your attention and stokes your interest.  When you see something new and different, it makes golf more fun.


I say great courses offer bold and innovative hole designs.

[John Kavanaugh]

I wouldn’t say that not being able to choose which green is best is hardly a sign of greatness. Why stop at two? C&C didn’t build all 100 holes at Sand Hills. They put on their big boy pants and chose 18.

[Tom_Doak]

I wouldn’t say that not being able to choose which green is best is hardly a sign of greatness. Why stop at two? C&C didn’t build all 100 holes at Sand Hills. They put on their big boy pants and chose 18.

Coore and Crenshaw didn't have a client at Sand Hills that had such strong preferences for the second-best green site . . . although, as I recall, I wrote a letter to Dick Youngscap about letting them build the 4th green where they wanted to, instead of down on the flats [away from the big bunker] because it was more natural.

[Cal Carlisle]

I don’t see how Rustic can be overrated. Greatness in land use, value and accessibility.

John,


 I 100% agree. One day last spring, I played 36 holes there and would have gone 54 if there would have been enough sunlight. I put Sand Hollow in the same category in terms of land use, value and accessibility.


As for the threshold for "Greatness"? I don't know how you even begin to define that on a broad scale.

[John Kavanaugh]

I wouldn’t say that not being able to choose which green is best is hardly a sign of greatness. Why stop at two? C&C didn’t build all 100 holes at Sand Hills. They put on their big boy pants and chose 18.

Coore and Crenshaw didn't have a client at Sand Hills that had such strong preferences for the second-best green site . . . although, as I recall, I wrote a letter to Dick Youngscap about letting them build the 4th green where they wanted to, instead of down on the flats [away from the big bunker] because it was more natural.

Was what you did a first at an important course where the choice isn’t at least partially  to keep the green playable.

[Charlie Ray]

Greatness is when you look pass what you are experiencing (food, music, arts, golf course architecture) and desire to know its source (its efficient cause).  Greatness asks you 'why?' when you lay in the bed and it creates hope that you experience it again.  Greatness is not overrated; ordinary is overrated.  Everyone desires what is extraordinary. 

[John Kavanaugh]

As you get older it evolves quicker than it disappears. Eventually you see greatness everywhere.

[Charlie Ray]

Is that called Wisdom John?

[Peter Pallotta]

I think the threshold may lie on the boundary between the expected and the unexpected, ie, in the interplay of the delightful surprise and the comfortingly familiar out of which it emerges. If there is one thing that all the merely average-decent courses I've played have in common it's that they almost never surprise me. The equation/balance is off at the average course -- they are comprised too much of the expected, with but rare flashes of the unexpected. In a word, the average-decent course is entirely predictable -- which in any art-craft implies a serviceable functionality that is not to be sneezed at, but that at the same time is the kiss of death for any chance at greatness.

[John Kavanaugh]

Is that called Wisdom John?

My wife and I have that discussion often. She leans towards old. I don’t think that wise people enjoy the element of surprise. I rarely see it coming.

[Ira Fishman]

I don’t mean the pinnacle where courses like Pine Valley reside but maybe where Yale or North Berwick fit.


Is it all about feel or are their standards that must be met?


When does a course go from very good to great?

What is the threshold for Pinnacle?


Ira

[Jim_Coleman]

   I think you need a minimum of 6 holes where you actually say “whoa!”