Inside Out of Bounds

[Rob Marshall]

Another thread got me thinking. Can a good hole have OB inside of the golf course? Dunluce has inside out of bounds on multiple holes. When I inquired after my visit why they had it, I received a nice email reply.  It basically said, while it was controversial and was a frequent conversation at the club, it had always been that way........I don't know if they removed the stakes for the Open. With the fiscue and heather why bother?

[Tom_Doak]

Another thread got me thinking. Can a good hole have OB inside of the golf course? Dunluce has inside out of bounds on multiple holes. When I inquired after my visit why they had it, I received a nice email reply.  It basically said, while it was controversial and was a frequent conversation at the club, it had always been that way........I don't know if they removed the stakes for the Open. With the fiscue and heather why bother?

I think Rory McIlroy wishes they had removed the stakes . . . didn't he drive OB there on the Thursday of The Open?


Internal out of bounds is something architects hope to avoid because it certainly looks like you're admitting you made a mistake if you need it.  But, as players start to hit the ball distances we never thought about, it is going to become a necessity for safety's sake at more and more courses.  I am wondering how they will do without it at Oakmont for the next U.S. Open, after so many of the players at the U.S. Amateur were playing into the wrong fairways.  You can do that in an event where there aren't many spectators in the way, but for the Open, it's a problem.

[Rob Marshall]

"But, as players start to hit the ball distances we never thought about, it is going to become a necessity for safety's sake at more and more courses. "

Great point. I hadn't thought of that.

[David Wuthrich]

Another thread got me thinking. Can a good hole have OB inside of the golf course? Dunluce has inside out of bounds on multiple holes. When I inquired after my visit why they had it, I received a nice email reply.  It basically said, while it was controversial and was a frequent conversation at the club, it had always been that way........I don't know if they removed the stakes for the Open. With the fiscue and heather why bother?

I think Rory McIlroy wishes they had removed the stakes . . . didn't he drive OB there on the Thursday of The Open?


Internal out of bounds is something architects hope to avoid because it certainly looks like you're admitting you made a mistake if you need it.  But, as players start to hit the ball distances we never thought about, it is going to become a necessity for safety's sake at more and more courses.  I am wondering how they will do without it at Oakmont for the next U.S. Open, after so many of the players at the U.S. Amateur were playing into the wrong fairways.  You can do that in an event where there aren't many spectators in the way, but for the Open, it's a problem.

I agree Tom, there are some angles that the youngers players are taking at some of these classic courses like Oakmont, that I would never have even thought to take.  But as they hit the ball so much farther than I used to, I guess that is something to consider.  It's too bad that we have to!

[Thomas Dai]

The 1st and others at RLGC/Hoylake would be examples.
I go along with what Tom says and given the distance folks hit the ball these days such a feature could (ought to) become more frequent. Better an internal OB than a Pro-V1 in the teeth of someone on another hole.
atb

[Sean_A]

The 1st and others at RLGC/Hoylake would be examples.
I go along with what Tom says and given the distance folks hit the ball these days such a feature could (ought to) become more frequent. Better an internal OB than a Pro-V1 in the teeth of someone on another hole.
atb

Hoylake isn't a good example of interior OoB. It's a practice ground that is played around, not holes, not a part of the course. When is a practice ground in play for regular play?

1 at Goswick is a good example. It's not a very good because of the OoB. Makes more sense to create a par 3 final hole and allow the first to play as it should. Plus the silly trees could go.

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

Well wait a second.

Players have been driving it in other fairways at TOC for decades.  Seems like this used to be a non-issue.. or in other words we used to call it strategy

[JohnVDB]

You might recall that at Birkdale, the R&A made an internal OB to stop players playing up a different hole (forget which holes), but didn’t make the driving range OB allowing Jordan Spieth to drop there in taking Unplayable relief.


Internal OB can be used for safety and also to protect the integrity of a hole (cutting a dogleg by playing through another hole).


I don’t think it should make a difference as to the quality of a hole if the OB is inside the golf course or on the edge of the course. But, I suppose it could be argued that the routing in general suffers and maybe should have been modified to avoid the need for it, although I’m sure there are times where that isn’t possible.


Or, trees could be planted ala Inverness and the Lon Hinkle tree I guess.

[Sean_A]

You might recall that at Birkdale, the R&A made an internal OB to stop players playing up a different hole (forget which holes), but didn’t make the driving range OB allowing Jordan Spieth to drop there in taking Unplayable relief.

Internal OB can be used for safety and also to protect the integrity of a hole (cutting a dogleg by playing through another hole).

I don’t think it should make a difference as to the quality of a hole if the OB is inside the golf course or on the edge of the course. But, I suppose it could be argued that the routing in general suffers and maybe should have been modified to avoid the need for it, although I’m sure there are times where that isn’t possible.

Or, trees could be planted ala Inverness and the Lon Hinkle tree I guess.

I don't recall Birkdale's range being internal. Isn't it open on one side so the course goes around the OoB without play on one side? So that would be 13, 14 across and 15 roughly back down the direction of 13?  I recall right on one 1 & 18 as OoB. I spose trying to use 10 fairway on the 9th is the likely call for internal OoB.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3zfrDSqDUs

Ciao

[Jim_Coleman]

   It’s an issue that should be considered before major tree removal work is undertaken.

[JohnVDB]

You might recall that at Birkdale, the R&A made an internal OB to stop players playing up a different hole (forget which holes), but didn’t make the driving range OB allowing Jordan Spieth to drop there in taking Unplayable relief.

Internal OB can be used for safety and also to protect the integrity of a hole (cutting a dogleg by playing through another hole).

I don’t think it should make a difference as to the quality of a hole if the OB is inside the golf course or on the edge of the course. But, I suppose it could be argued that the routing in general suffers and maybe should have been modified to avoid the need for it, although I’m sure there are times where that isn’t possible.

Or, trees could be planted ala Inverness and the Lon Hinkle tree I guess.

I don't recall Birkdale's range being internal. Isn't it open on one side so the course goes around the OoB without play on one side? So that would be 13, 14 across and 15 roughly back down the direction of 13?  I recall right on one 1 & 18 as OoB. I spose trying to use 10 fairway on the 9th is the likely call for internal OoB.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3zfrDSqDUs

Ciao

You’re probably right.  I’ve never been there so I probably shouldn’t have assumed it was.

[Tom_Doak]

Well wait a second.

Players have been driving it in other fairways at TOC for decades.  Seems like this used to be a non-issue.. or in other words we used to call it strategy

Kalen:


It's a non-issue, unless it makes the golf course dangerous.  At The Old Course they solve this by the rule that "homeward players have the right of way", and everyone in town understanding they've got to be watching while they are playing the front nine.  At Oakmont, they are driving down the 9th to attack the 1st, driving down the 11th to attack the 10th, etc. 


That won't be much of a problem for member play, because the members aren't long enough to add fifty yards to the playing length of a 480-yard hole (!), but in the U.S. Open, they'd be driving it over the gallery's head and into the teeth of players in another fairway. 

[Niall C]

I played one just yesterday that had internal OB up the left of the fairway and also to the right of the green. The next tee was set on the left and back the way and therefore in the fightpath for a hooked tee shot. On the right there is another green that is almost pin high and over the brow of hill and therefore unsighted so in both instances its a no-brainer for safety reasons.


Simply shouting FORE at the top of your voice on a Scottish hillside with the wind blowing isn't always going to work.


Niall

[archie_struthers]

 


We have a hole at our club that definitely would benefit with internal OB..typically I'm against it but in this case seems necessary. The hole is a nice par 4 dogleg left , with a challenging tee shot that requires a long hitter to decide what club to hit when the wind is blowing behind the player. 


The young bombers who can carry it 275 just blow it down an alternate fairway, which takes away all strategy and is a danger to those playing the hole. So for me it's not even a question on this one.

[Thomas Dai]

The 1st and others at RLGC/Hoylake would be examples.
I go along with what Tom says and given the distance folks hit the ball these days such a feature could (ought to) become more frequent. Better an internal OB than a Pro-V1 in the teeth of someone on another hole.
atb

Hoylake isn't a good example of interior OoB. It's a practice ground that is played around, not holes, not a part of the course. When is a practice ground in play for regular play?
Ciao

Disagree. Doesn’t matter imo if it’s a hole or a practice ground or any other feature, it’s just internal.
Another example, a hole this time, would be the 7th at Stinchcombe Hill where the 8th fairway is OB for safety reasons.
I’ve seen temporary internal OB been introduced for pro tournaments. Not just for player safety but for spectator safety too.
Likely something that should be used more often. Damn dangerous game at times and in places these days.
Atb

[Sean_A]

The 1st and others at RLGC/Hoylake would be examples.
I go along with what Tom says and given the distance folks hit the ball these days such a feature could (ought to) become more frequent. Better an internal OB than a Pro-V1 in the teeth of someone on another hole.
atb

Hoylake isn't a good example of interior OoB. It's a practice ground that is played around, not holes, not a part of the course. When is a practice ground in play for regular play?
Ciao

Disagree. Doesn’t matter imo if it’s a hole or a practice ground or any other feature, it’s just internal.
Another example, a hole this time, would be the 7th at Stinchcombe Hill where the 8th fairway is OB for safety reasons.
I’ve seen temporary internal OB been introduced for pro tournaments. Not just for player safety but for spectator safety too.
Likely something that should be used more often. Damn dangerous game at times and in places these days.
Atb

So practice grounds should be open for daily play as part of golf courses? Doesn't make sense to me and it doesn't matter where the practice ground is. What if the parking lot and house was surrounded by holes. Is that internal OoB?

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

What? Rather confusing.
Atb

[Duncan Cheslett]

I agree with Sean.


The OB at Hoylake isn’t internal - it’s simply separating the practice ground from the course. If the clubhouse and car park were in the middle of the course no-one would consider it strange that they weren’t in play.


OB isn’t necessarily on the boundary of the property - it marks the boundary of the playing area. This might well be well inside the boundary of the property - that doesn’t make it internal OB.


Internal OB is where the ground immediately beyond the white stakes is part of the course. This is demonstrably not the case at Hoylake. The practice ground is not part of the course,  therefore the OB is not internal.

[Jim_Coleman]

   To me, an internal out of bounds, which signifies poor architecture, is when a ball is in bounds when playing one hole and out of bounds when playing another. The o/b driving range to the left on the 10th at Gulph Mills (a great Ross course) is not an architectural flaw.

[Sean_A]

I agree with Sean.


The OB at Hoylake isn’t internal - it’s simply separating the practice ground from the course. If the clubhouse and car park were in the middle of the course no-one would consider it strange that they weren’t in play.


OB isn’t necessarily on the boundary of the property - it marks the boundary of the playing area. This might well be well inside the boundary of the property - that doesn’t make it internal OB.


Internal OB is where the ground immediately beyond the white stakes is part of the course. This is demonstrably not the case at Hoylake. The practice ground is not part of the course,  therefore the OB is not internal.

I think of internal OoB as an area of the property surrounded by the golf course that you would expect to be a playable part of the course, but is instead marked as OoB. Usually its a hole which is in bounds from one direction and OoB from another direction. I wouldn't consider a practice ground as a playable part of the course for obvious reasons.

I wonder if the R&A learned a lesson from Birkdale? That drop situation was farcical simply because the Comm didn't have the foresight to mark the practice ground as OoB. It would have been a wild scene if that scenario took place with guys on the range.

Ciao

[Michael Felton]

   To me, an internal out of bounds, which signifies poor architecture, is when a ball is in bounds when playing one hole and out of bounds when playing another. The o/b driving range to the left on the 10th at Gulph Mills (a great Ross course) is not an architectural flaw.

When smaller events are held on Bethpage Black, they make the 1st fairway on the green course out of bounds. It's not OB for regular play and they have hospitality there when one of the big ones comes to town, so it's moot. Would you consider that internal OB? Different course, but the same club.


The only real example of internal OB that I've seen recently is at Seawane on Long Island. The third and fourth holes are separated by an inlet. It's about 20 yards across. I don't know if this is how it's always played, but when we play there, the inlet itself is a red penalty area, but if you go over the far side of it that's treated as out of bounds. I think that's reasonable - it's a really pretty bad shot to go over there and no one would try to.


When I don't like internal OB is when it's used to stop people cutting corners. That seems like laziness on the part of the design.


Side note - at the US Amateur at Oakmont, I think the issue in at least some of those cases was the front part of the fairway on hole X, which never gets seen by the elite players is wider than the landing zone on hole Y. That means for an elite player, you have a much larger target going over to hole X even though it's further away from the green on hole Y. Seems to me like, with some prep time, you don't need to make it OB - just make it rough or at least narrower so it's not a preferable target. It'll suck for regular people playing it, but would fix the danger issues for the pros. I don't know how long it would take to make it rough or make it back to fairway again afterwards, so I'm not sure how disruptive it would be.

[Kalen Braley]

Well wait a second.

Players have been driving it in other fairways at TOC for decades.  Seems like this used to be a non-issue.. or in other words we used to call it strategy

Kalen:

It's a non-issue, unless it makes the golf course dangerous.  At The Old Course they solve this by the rule that "homeward players have the right of way", and everyone in town understanding they've got to be watching while they are playing the front nine.  At Oakmont, they are driving down the 9th to attack the 1st, driving down the 11th to attack the 10th, etc. 

That won't be much of a problem for member play, because the members aren't long enough to add fifty yards to the playing length of a 480-yard hole (!), but in the U.S. Open, they'd be driving it over the gallery's head and into the teeth of players in another fairway.

Tom,

That makes perfect sense.  But if this understanding can be applied for every day golfers at TOC, why can't it be used in other situations?  And especially so in one off tournaments when elite golfers come thru town like at Oakmont.

[Jonathan Mallard]

Didn't the USGA already solve this one for us on the 8th hole at Inverness in 1979?


Just plant (and name) more trees!


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-notorious-hinkle-tree-from-the-1979-us-open-has-died-but-the-legend-lives-on

[Jim_Coleman]

Michael:
   I would not consider out of bounds on an adjacent course (Bethpage Red being out of bounds for a shot played from the Black) an internal out of bounds. For me at least, “internal” means on the course you’re playing. That’s my definition of the architectural flaw.

[Rob Marshall]

Had a friend play the 1st hole on the Black down the fairway right of the green. I think it's a hole on the Green course? I've only played the Black and Red.