The three best holes at Pine Valley

[archie_struthers]

 




It's been a long time since I've started a thread on one of my favorite places in the world , so before I get too old thought it might be fun to see opinions on this one. Think it will be very interesting to see if the list gets narrowed as you can make a case for almost any hole on the golf course.  Will hold my powder til we get to see some responses as don't want to prejudice the discussion. 

[Jonathan Cummings]

How about the first 18....

[David Amarnek]

Such a difficult exercise, but I'll answer with my favorite par 3 (#5), par 4 (#13), and par 5 (#15).

[archie_struthers]

 


Well balanced David but I'm going to wait for a few hours and then pipe up

[Tim Martin]

I know the title calls for “best” but like David I’ll pick a favorite 3,4 and 5. Par 3-# 5, Par 4-#2 and Par 5-# 15. I’m a sucker for short par 4 holes so it’s tough to leave out 8 and 17. At 358/365 # 2 is shortish and may fit the bill.

[Mike Nuzzo]

#2 - for the coolest green - pre-work anyway
#10 - DA

[Jim_Coleman]

   For the first time visitor. I think the views from the 2nd, 5th and 18th tees are the most jaw dropping.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I am very partial to 2, 8, & 17. I'm a sucker for q great short par four. Probably not the best holes but three of my favorites.

[archie_struthers]

 


Ok , I'm going to say number 1,  #4 for sure and I'm totally twisted as to whether #8 is as good or better than #15. This on a golf course that has four fabulous par threes, which sets it apart from many others.


Gotta pull the trigger and say #15 is the third best , given the strategy involved and the more intricate putting dilemma presented .


#4 is just wonderful given all the strategy and options. That being said it was better before the built the fairway flanking bunkers at the top of the hill. Would love to see them go. That being said it's just so good that it gets my vote as best hole.

[mike_malone]

3,4,16 are my best. I love angles and each has them. 4 and 16 also have the front to back sloping greens that I love.

[Tom_Doak]

Archie:  an old friend and I were talking about PV many years ago, and we agreed that it was amazing that a hole as unique as #4 was never even in the discussion of being one of the best holes there.


I am going to build a course in a year or two that may include odes to PV #2 and 13, so I guess those should be in my top three picks.  Candidates for my third choice would include 4, 5, 8, and 17.  I don’t agree with you on 15, but chacon a son gout.

[archie_struthers]

 


Tom a while back I would have named #2, 8 and 13 as the best three holes. It speaks to the quality of the design that everyone might have a different favorite.  Painted myself into a corner a bit as best is perhaps the most difficult to quantify. Couldn't use #8 because the green is too simplistic relative to the rest yet if you picked one hole to give a Crump Cupper par before they teed off in the qualifier it would likely be that or #5. 


Often the first hole at a golf course as a "gentle handshake' is a good design theory but that's not the case here. The tee shot has to be precise and aggressive in my opinion as hitting that green with more than a short, short iron is perilous. So buckle up and drive it as close to the right bunker or over it if you can fit it. Not only is accuracy important distance control is paramount. The green is one of the hardest to read and putt on the course, with a pronounced front to back cant that is imperceptible to most.Hit it left or right pin high , dead.  The only miss is short center which if the pin is back is a very very difficult chip to gauge. So many things to worry about , so that's why I believe in being uber aggressive on the tee shot.  So from the first swing of the day , strap it on.


#2 is just fabulous but I had to move it back as distance has increased over the years. The best players can hit a driving iron to the end of the fairway these days so it slipped behind  #'s one and four in my pantheon. Given your proclivity for building some of the best greens in the world I can see how that green could overwhelm the senses. It truly is a masterpiece , and may be the most unique and interesting greens to read anywhere in the world.  Given that it requires a shot that is also the right distance  it is hard to leave if off my list , but I did.


More to come heading out!




 

[Mike Worth]

4, 8, 13. 

[JMEvensky]

Archie, if you were ever going to get TEP re-involved on GCA...

[Luke Sutton]

8, 8, & 8

[Tim_Weiman]

2, 8, 13

[archie_struthers]

 




Ok .onward...had a tough time deciding between two and fifteen but it's just so hard to design a great par five these days that
fifteen has jumped it for me. The reason being in that previously it was basically unreachable except in fluky conditions. Now that has changed. Jay Sigel never hit driver there, despite the fairway being quite wide as he knew that the second shot was a lay up. Haven't seen enough of the new stars playing it lately but I suspect they might try and get it up around the green a lot more often than in my day. If so , it's ferocious.  The green is really difficult with a need to get it on the right shelf (level) to make putting a bit easier.  Anything long of any pin makes for a really lightning fast lag. How many great players will abandon their attack mode and just hit it in the middle of the green and play for par. Not many I would guess, what say you guys?


If this hole is not played conservatively it is infinitely more difficult, wish I could see more shots like I did in my youth.Would help me in my analysis. But temptation is the "devils" greatest friend.


#4 stands alone for me, and it would be even better if they took out the bunkers that were added around 2000 on the right side of the fairway. They are beautifully integrated but as I have repeated (ad nauseam  ) to many the option to stripe a tee shot over the corner was removed. One of my great hopes in golf is that they restore the old on this one. Notwithstanding the hole has everything for everybody. The front tees are so well placed that someone has to consider an alternative driving angle or club when conditions merit such a choice . The back tee is sick long , demanding a huge tee shot for the very best players in the world to get a good look at the green. The green is superb , demanding intelligence in whether to play it front or back (back generally better) if you are trying to hit it close enough to have a good shot at birdie. Firm conditions also make you think of how to flight the shot so as not to leave it short. The swale that bisects the green is perfectly placed and runs at an angle making it harder to read the putt and get anything close if putting thru it. I could go on and on about this hole, it's almost perfect. 


By the way the caddies get a shortcut and rest depending on who is older or how their players hit the tee shot on three.  it's a welcome respite, and the view down to the tee or clubhouse by the 4th green and from the crest the hill is beautiful. Crump really did himself proud here ,  simply brilliant.   No wonder that guy  Woody quit after playing it !    LOL

[Bill Crane]

#13 is the best hole on the course.

Off the top of my head I would settle on #4 as the second best.

A toss up after that probably #3  ( though #2 would be a close next choice).

In my humble book, 14 must be one of the best par 4s in the world, along with the 5th at Merion.

Clearly I have a strong feeling for the beginning of the course.  The opening five holes are all so iconic and different.  Dogleg right 4, uphill 4, downhill 3, blind downhill 4 then uphill 3.

While there are certainly no bad holes at PV seems to me that 12 would be the least interesting architecturally and would still be a standout at many clubs.   Removals of plants on the left have opened up the hole.

Sleeper hole is #11, with slopes on both sides of hole, a sort of choke point in the middle and another challenging slopey green.

[JohnVDB]

I would say 2, 10 and 13. I love short par 3s like 10 so I’ll be the first voter for the DA. There is no doubt that every hole out there is wonderful

[archie_struthers]

 


Hey Bill nice post !


I would argue that 13 is less demanding than the others in that the tee shot is a layup much like two. Nicklaus allegedly said that the green was too big for an eight iron second shot in his youth.  Sounds out of character to me.

Beautiful , iconic hole with demand on tee shot high if you hit it far.  Easier for a shorter straighter hitter, but the green doesn't have the same subtleties as the others I have ranked higher. 


By the way my favorite hole as a youth was 11,   just like the way it flowed!

[Dan Boerger]

Not much to add ...


Favorite Par 3 - 3rd Hole. Plays very differently if the pin is back v front. Downhill, but seems to play the yardage all the time.


Favorite Par 4 - 17th Hole. A well deserved breather off the tee, but you sure need accuracy on your approach. There's simply no good miss.


Favorite Par 5 - 15th Hole. Diabolical how it rises and narrows as you get closer. Why this design technique is not used more often is anyone's guess.


Just no wrong answers to the question, IMO.

[Mark Chaplin]

I’m certainly not long and one visit on #4 I hit a good tee shot but too far right. We expected it to tangle in the trees or a bunker but got an OK from the caddie, when we reached the ball it was 6” into the first cut of the cut off at the end of the fairway.


Years ago I had a reputation for playing well on sh*t golf courses so was known as Swampy. Scratch Golf (RIP) kindly made me a set of irons 4-9 with letters rather than numbers, the 4 iron was S, 5 iron W and so on. We got to the 10th and I took out my 8 iron, the other golfer’s caddie immediately said I hadn’t enough club. I told him it was plenty and would happily pay him $20 if I was short and he’d pay me $20 if I was pin high or further. Unfortunately one of my partners wouldn’t let him take the bet and snitched the P wasn’t a wedge but an 8 iron!

[Mike Hendren]

Regrettably I am estopped from commenting on Pine Valley and Oakmont.  I have performed at Ryman Auditorium, so I have that going for me. 


All the best, Mike.

[archie_struthers]

 


Some great responses to my query and enjoyed them all, even the estoppel piece. C'mon man!


Sticking by my choices for now but as times change could shuffle the deck again. Can't ever forget watching Pete Dye jumping around like a little kid in these beautiful bunkers to the left of the 6th fairway. Even I never hit one in there     He was no doubt wondering why they were there and how could they be so perfectly natural. . Not knowing a whole lot about architecture at the time could only smile at the memory of a guy in full khaki and a silly looking hat having the full attention of a bunch of pretty esteemed members of the club. Looked more like an archaeologist at a dig.


I'm just guessing but my thought that day was he really loves what he does, how cool!

[Bill Crane]

I’m certainly not long and one visit on #4 I hit a good tee shot but too far right. We expected it to tangle in the trees or a bunker but got an OK from the caddie, when we reached the ball it was 6” into the first cut of the cut off at the end of the fairway.

Years ago I had a reputation for playing well on sh*t golf courses so was known as Swampy. Scratch Golf (RIP) kindly made me a set of irons 4-9 with letters rather than numbers, the 4 iron was S, 5 iron W and so on. We got to the 10th and I took out my 8 iron, the other golfer’s caddie immediately said I hadn’t enough club. I told him it was plenty and would happily pay him $20 if I was short and he’d pay me $20 if I was pin high or further. Unfortunately one of my partners wouldn’t let him take the bet and snitched the P wasn’t a wedge but an 8 iron!

Mark: 
Ironically, I had a somewhat similar experience with caddies on the 13th at PV.   I was on the left side of the fairway with a pretty hefty shot in and my caddie gave the yardage, and the other caddie in the group jumped in and started arguing with him and claimed that he did not start with the correct yardage from the cap behind us.   The argument went on for over 5 mins.  I left the approach short and right - the safe bail out.
FYI :  You and I played Royal Dornoch with DT about 8 or 10 years ago.