OT: LIV field

[John Kavanaugh]

Was the 36 Olympics the first attempt at sports washing. How did that work out?


Is “sports washing” just another word for Nazi?  When are we going to stop the name calling and relax?


What if the Saudi’s spent their money on a free bullet train from Bandon to Cabo?  Is that sports washing? Does it count if it benefits amateur sports enthusiasts?


Has James Dolan sport washed the Knicks just so we will listen to his band?

[Tim_Cronin]

Two sources have told Lou Stagner, a golf stats guru, that the LIV Golf operation is expected to make an offer to buy the DP World (European) Tour. This likely explains the silence of Keith Pelley in recent days.


That would really make the fecal material hit the ventilator.

[Sean_A]

Was the 36 Olympics the first attempt at sports washing. How did that work out?


Is “sports washing” just another word for Nazi?  When are we going to stop the name calling and relax?


What if the Saudi’s spent their money on a free bullet train from Bandon to Cabo?  Is that sports washing? Does it count if it benefits amateur sports enthusiasts?


Has James Dolan sport washed the Knicks just so we will listen to his band?

There must be a few examples of so called sports washing which has actually worked. I can't think of any though. Do people really think sovereign wealth fund investments in sport is about improving the image of Saudi by covering up human rights abuses? No one thinks it could ultimately be about diversifying their economy? And thus creating jobs, improving infrastructure etc. Even a cruel country such as Saudi understands that it must change to keep up. Not in my lifetime, but the day is coming when oil will not rule the roost...and the Saudis understand this.

Ciao

[Brian_Ewen]

In my opinion, these events--with small fields, 54 holes only, etc.--are more like exhibitions and shouldn't be given points.

What?

Even though there is similar on the PGA Tour that are given points?

[Rob Marshall]

Was the 36 Olympics the first attempt at sports washing. How did that work out?


Is “sports washing” just another word for Nazi?  When are we going to stop the name calling and relax?


What if the Saudi’s spent their money on a free bullet train from Bandon to Cabo?  Is that sports washing? Does it count if it benefits amateur sports enthusiasts?


Has James Dolan sport washed the Knicks just so we will listen to his band?

There must be a few examples of so called sports washing which has actually worked. I can't think of any though. Do people really think sovereign wealth fund investments in sport is about improving the image of Saudi by covering up human rights abuses? No one thinks it could ultimately be about diversifying their economy? And thus creating jobs, improving infrastructure etc. Even a cruel country such as Saudi understands that it must change to keep up. Not in my lifetime, but the day is coming when oil will not rule the roost...and the Saudis understand this.

Ciao

How does losing money on golf diversify their economy or create Saudi jobs?

[Edward Glidewell]

In my opinion, these events--with small fields, 54 holes only, etc.--are more like exhibitions and shouldn't be given points.

What?

Even though there is similar on the PGA Tour that are given points?

As I've said above, even if they are given points, it won't help very much. Obviously it would be better than no points at all, but these players will likely end up with something like 10% of the points they'd earn on their regular PGA Tour schedule. They need more tournaments with stronger fields.

[John Kavanaugh]

Was the 36 Olympics the first attempt at sports washing. How did that work out?


Is “sports washing” just another word for Nazi?  When are we going to stop the name calling and relax?


What if the Saudi’s spent their money on a free bullet train from Bandon to Cabo?  Is that sports washing? Does it count if it benefits amateur sports enthusiasts?


Has James Dolan sport washed the Knicks just so we will listen to his band?

There must be a few examples of so called sports washing which has actually worked. I can't think of any though. Do people really think sovereign wealth fund investments in sport is about improving the image of Saudi by covering up human rights abuses? No one thinks it could ultimately be about diversifying their economy? And thus creating jobs, improving infrastructure etc. Even a cruel country such as Saudi understands that it must change to keep up. Not in my lifetime, but the day is coming when oil will not rule the roost...and the Saudis understand this.

Ciao

Notre Dame is an example of sports washing. I was indoctrinated into believing it is a great university just cause they won a couple of titles in the 40’s.

[Tim Gavrich]

There must be a few examples of so called sports washing which has actually worked. I can't think of any though.

That means it may have worked on you in some prior instance.


The goal is to inure people to its effects. That's why calling it out (even to the point of irritating people - I know the whole affair is very irritating to me!) is important - people will be reminded to see it for what it is. The distracting hypotheticals and whataboutist deflections play directly into the hands of the entity engaging in it.


I guess to some, whether what SA is up to in golf constitutes sportswashing is up for debate (it seems very clear to me that that's what's going on). And I guess some others are in favor of SA laundering its reputation in this way.


Regardless, every "What about China!" and "What about Saudi involvement in other sports!" and "What about US commerce with the Kingdom!" helps SA derive some value from this project. Golfers like Phil Mickelson and DJ are getting paid handsomely to help with that while lots of others seem eager to do it for free.

[Kalen Braley]

Was the 36 Olympics the first attempt at sports washing. How did that work out?


Is “sports washing” just another word for Nazi?  When are we going to stop the name calling and relax?


What if the Saudi’s spent their money on a free bullet train from Bandon to Cabo?  Is that sports washing? Does it count if it benefits amateur sports enthusiasts?


Has James Dolan sport washed the Knicks just so we will listen to his band?

There must be a few examples of so called sports washing which has actually worked. I can't think of any though. Do people really think sovereign wealth fund investments in sport is about improving the image of Saudi by covering up human rights abuses? No one thinks it could ultimately be about diversifying their economy? And thus creating jobs, improving infrastructure etc. Even a cruel country such as Saudi understands that it must change to keep up. Not in my lifetime, but the day is coming when oil will not rule the roost...and the Saudis understand this.

Ciao

How does losing money on golf diversify their economy or create Saudi jobs?

This is exactly my question.  Even if the reports are only half true, they will literally be paying out hundreds of millions if not billions just to get this thing going.  How on God's green earth are they ever going to recover that?

Sounds a bit like building a new golf course.  Spend 30+ mill on upfront project costs and then just hope to make enough to cover operating costs year over year...and we know how most of those turn out for the initial owner.

This new tour is a completely bogus/bullshit business model and the #2 reason why I'm not a fan of it besides the fact that its blood money funding it.

[John Kavanaugh]

Propagating hate and division has historically driven up the price of oil. You guys bought the whole hog sausage. Put that in your money model.

[Tim Martin]

Was the 36 Olympics the first attempt at sports washing. How did that work out?


Is “sports washing” just another word for Nazi?  When are we going to stop the name calling and relax?


What if the Saudi’s spent their money on a free bullet train from Bandon to Cabo?  Is that sports washing? Does it count if it benefits amateur sports enthusiasts?


Has James Dolan sport washed the Knicks just so we will listen to his band?

There must be a few examples of so called sports washing which has actually worked. I can't think of any though. Do people really think sovereign wealth fund investments in sport is about improving the image of Saudi by covering up human rights abuses? No one thinks it could ultimately be about diversifying their economy? And thus creating jobs, improving infrastructure etc. Even a cruel country such as Saudi understands that it must change to keep up. Not in my lifetime, but the day is coming when oil will not rule the roost...and the Saudis understand this.

Ciao

How does losing money on golf diversify their economy or create Saudi jobs?

This is exactly my question.  Even if the reports are only half true, they will literally be paying out hundreds of millions if not billions just to get this thing going.  How on God's green earth are they ever going to recover that?

They don’t need to recover any of it as it’s not a venture where the bottom line is the driver. They will have no issues absorbing the losses.

[Jim Hoak]

Brian, what PGA Tour events do you consider similar that get points?

[Peter Flory]

Can the LIV players also play on the European tour? 

[John Kavanaugh]

Can the LIV players also play on the European tour?

No. The Saudi commish stated that any LIV player seen playing the ET will be suspended and future payouts cancelled. In between tears I thought I made out something about European Colonialism.

[Peter Sayegh]

Notre Dame is an example of sports washing. I was indoctrinated into believing it is a great university just cause they won a couple of titles in the 40’s.

+1

[Tim Leahy]

Notre Dame is an example of sports washing. I was indoctrinated into believing it is a great university just cause they won a couple of titles in the 40’s.

+1

FU both. The Fighting Irish are a bastion of righteousness in a corrupt college sports world.
Favoring education over winning is the only reason they haven't won more than the 24 national championships the polls gave them.

[PCCraig]

Notre Dame is an example of sports washing. I was indoctrinated into believing it is a great university just cause they won a couple of titles in the 40’s.

+1

FU both. The Fighting Irish are a bastion of righteousness in a corrupt college sports world.
Favoring education over winning is the only reason they haven't won more than the 24 national championships the polls gave them.

You are absolutely fucking kidding, right?:


https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-notre-dame-sex-assault-lawsuit-met-20170913-story.html

[Tim_Cronin]

You can go back to 1974 with Notre Dame football rape allegations: Six players were dismissed from the university for a year, South Bend prosecutors were on the case. Here's a link to the AP story.


https://idnc.library.illinois.edu/?a=d&d=DIL19740726.2.66&e=-------en-20--1--img-txIN----------


I covered Notre Dame sports, focusing on football, for a newspaper for about 30 years. The atmosphere went from collegial to corporate in that time. Two athletic directors in particular, Dick Rosenthal (1987-94) and Jack Swarbrick (2008-present), were responsible for that. And Swarbrick's conduct surrounding the death of Declan Sullivan, a student and video assistant for the football team who was killed when a lift fell in high winds during a 2010 practice, will never be forgiven.


Good school, but as imperfect as the rest of the world.

[Tim Leahy]

Notre Dame is an example of sports washing. I was indoctrinated into believing it is a great university just cause they won a couple of titles in the 40’s.

+1

FU both. The Fighting Irish are a bastion of righteousness in a corrupt college sports world.
Favoring education over winning is the only reason they haven't won more than the 24 national championships the polls gave them.

You are absolutely fucking kidding, right?:


https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-notre-dame-sex-assault-lawsuit-met-20170913-story.html

Fake news!

[Tim Leahy]

You can go back to 1974 with Notre Dame football rape allegations: Six players were dismissed from the university for a year, South Bend prosecutors were on the case. Here's a link to the AP story.


https://idnc.library.illinois.edu/?a=d&d=DIL19740726.2.66&e=-------en-20--1--img-txIN----------


I covered Notre Dame sports, focusing on football, for a newspaper for about 30 years. The atmosphere went from collegial to corporate in that time. Two athletic directors in particular, Dick Rosenthal (1987-94) and Jack Swarbrick (2008-present), were responsible for that. And Swarbrick's conduct surrounding the death of Declan Sullivan, a student and video assistant for the football team who was killed when a lift fell in high winds during a 2010 practice, will never be forgiven.


Good school, but as imperfect as the rest of the world.

Sullivan was a tragic accident, nothing more.
You gotta go back to 1974, compared to the other Power 5 conferences where despicable stuff happens every year and they just cover it up.
ND is still the class of college football.

[Sean_A]

Was the 36 Olympics the first attempt at sports washing. How did that work out?


Is “sports washing” just another word for Nazi?  When are we going to stop the name calling and relax?


What if the Saudi’s spent their money on a free bullet train from Bandon to Cabo?  Is that sports washing? Does it count if it benefits amateur sports enthusiasts?


Has James Dolan sport washed the Knicks just so we will listen to his band?

There must be a few examples of so called sports washing which has actually worked. I can't think of any though. Do people really think sovereign wealth fund investments in sport is about improving the image of Saudi by covering up human rights abuses? No one thinks it could ultimately be about diversifying their economy? And thus creating jobs, improving infrastructure etc. Even a cruel country such as Saudi understands that it must change to keep up. Not in my lifetime, but the day is coming when oil will not rule the roost...and the Saudis understand this.

Ciao

How does losing money on golf diversify their economy or create Saudi jobs?

Trying to attract internal investment. Which could stabilise banking, develop markets in which Saudi can perhaps be competitive. The goal is to make the private sector an engine for domestic growth. While I don't like the Saudi regime, I do see the above as very positive. It's an economically backward country because its not a country in the sense you and I think of the term. Saudi is basically a family run oil company. Making a country attractive to invest is not the same as making a country appealing to the masses. Plenty of countries and companies invest in unsavoury places if the possible gains outweigh the risks.

Ciao

[Sean_A]

There must be a few examples of so called sports washing which has actually worked. I can't think of any though.

That means it's may have worked on you in some prior instance.


The goal is to inure people to its effects. That's why calling it out (even to the point of irritating people - I know the whole affair is very irritating to me!) is important - people will be reminded to see it for what it is. The distracting hypotheticals and whataboutist deflections play directly into the hands of the entity engaging in it.


I guess to some, whether what SA is up to in golf constitutes sportswashing is up for debate (it seems very clear to me that that's what's going on). And I guess some others are in favor of SA laundering its reputation in this way.


Regardless, every "What about China!" and "What about Saudi involvement in other sports!" and "What about US commerce with the Kingdom!" helps SA derive some value from this project. Golfers like Phil Mickelson and DJ are getting paid handsomely to help with that while lots of others seem eager to do it for free.

So, what are those incidents of successful sport washing? I don't think any better of Saudi, Russia and China....and I don't think others do. I haven't seen evidence of successful sport washing. I see plenty evidence of all levels of society taking dirty money which has been going on since there was dirty money to be had. But again, I am sure there are cases where a country is now seen in a positive light by much of the world when if fact it still has a terrible human rights record.

Ciao

[Jim_Coleman]

I would say Trump has been unsuccessful in attempting to sports wash his image through golf, as the Tour and R&A have dropped him. But LIV is giving him another opportunity.

[cary lichtenstein]

Trump, sports wash, lol, he just wants the money.

[Jim_Coleman]

   Trump not interested in his image? lol. “My ratings are the best!” He’s really not very good at making money, absent the grift.