OT: LIV field

[John Kavanaugh]

The commish played it. How about providing a better product before you try to make the viewer better people?

[Steve Lang]

   The 9/11 folks can play their cards anytime they want.   No arguments.


But as the saying goes: " folks don't have the right to their own facts."   I've worked with dozens of Saudi's on small $millions to $$Billions sized large projects and hate to see all 35 million of them lumped together as all evil bad apples any more than any other national, regional or local group of people.


Interesting reading from:  https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-fall-of-the-bin-ladens


Bakr bin Laden’s recent travails offer a coda to the story of 9/11’s aftermath inside Saudi Arabia. The recent fall—or at least the economic punishment—of the bin Laden family has coincided with the rise to power of M.B.S., but it also reflects the twilight of the sprawling generation to which Osama belonged. It is a story of privilege, succession, and wildly diverse outlooks within a family whose name is an indelible part of American history.


Congrats to Charl Schwartzel, I'd be really impressed with the past Masters Champion if he gave a sizable charitable donation somewhere.

... and have to question now whether the LIV PGA pariahs will be cancelled and their profiles scrubbed from PGA website??

https://www.pgatour.com/players/player.26331.charl-schwartzel.html

[Edward Glidewell]

There's a Dustin Johnson golf school at the TPC course in Myrtle Beach -- wonder if they'll strip his name off of it now, considering TPC is part of the PGA Tour and he resigned.

[John Kavanaugh]

Have any of the agents of the 17 players stepped away from this dirty money as an act of Patriotism?

[Pete_Pittock]

Are they independent contractors, or does the acceptance of appearance money, signing bonus or whatevermake them an employee?
Think they are closer to finally having a job.

[Bill Gayne]

A possible scenario that I see is golf looking a lot like tennis in 5-10 years.


The tennis grand slam events survive being operated by entities outside the, ATP, tennis professional tour. The USTA, All England Lawn and Tennis, and the federations in France and Australia. Much like the USGA, ANGC, R&A, and PGA will continue to operate the four golf majors.


There's only one professional tour in tennis and only one professional golf tour may survive and it will either be the existing tours coming together and squeezing out the Saudis or the Saudis survive.


If this happened the TV coverage would be similar to tennis with extensive grand slam coverage (majors) and scant network coverage of tour events. Player on court (course) earnings would be concentrated at the very top with a 70% differential that now exists between the #1 ranked and #10 rank. The majority of money for the top would come from appearance fees and endorsements.


Tennis as a club sport is doing fine and golf will do fine as a club sport but won't achieve long term growth that it could have.


The Davis Cup survives and the Ryder Cup will find a way to survive.


Just a scenario that I could see evolving. I don't think this would be a good outcome for those financially vested in growing the game. 

[Wayne_Kozun]

I wonder what the Saudi's think the ROI is on this huge spend. Hundreds of millions of dollars is not meaningless even to them. The horse racing and soccer club investments at least result in purses and assets that bring money back into their coffers. Unless my assessment of what some future level of broadcasting rights could result in I do not understand any business rationale for this level of spend.

That is the whole point - there is no traditional "ROI." Nobody can compete with this model as it makes zero financial sense. The whole point is sportswashing, period.

This is an excellent point that is being ignored by many.  I thought of this when listening to the Fire Pit podcast today.  They talk about how the tour needs to change things.  But they can't compete with the Saudis as the Saudis have a completely different objective function that involves making them acceptable to the rest of the world rather than making money.. 

[Jim Sherma]

One of the difference between tennis and golf is that tennis players do not regularly sit around after playing drinking in clubs with televisions on. The purchasing power associated with the bar seats at every club/course in the US will keep golf on television on weekend afternoons. These companies need to advertise to older wealthier guys somehow.


Also, I’m not fully sold on the idea that ROI doesn’t matter to them. It might be on a longer time horizon, but there still needs to be done narrative beyond them thinking we might like them if they give a bunch of golfers a ton of cash.

[John Kavanaugh]

There must be a fable about this that I can’t remember. One where everyone gets their money and likes them even less.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

... and have to question now whether the LIV PGA pariahs will be cancelled and their profiles scrubbed from PGA website??

Probably not.

https://www.pgatour.com/players/player.01876.greg-norman.html

[Brian_Ewen]

While no right-thinking person is hailing the oil-rich Saudis as a force for good in the wider world, in the little part of the planet occupied by golf their elite power-grab might, at least in one way, actually turn out to be just what Old Tom’s game needs in the long run. For too long now, the PGA Tour has been golf’s Goliath, a selfish, insular bully whose every action betrayed a lack of desire to do what is best for the sport on a global basis.

History – at least until recently – does not paint a pretty picture of how PGA Tour players have reacted to the presence of foreign interlopers. Bobby Locke was basically run out of town in the 1950s, a time when the eccentric South African was kicking the butts of Sam Snead, Ben Hogan and everyone else. Tony Jacklin has often spoken of how cold and unfriendly the Tour could be in the 1960s. A decade later Seve Ballesteros was afforded the same sort of welcome, as he showed the Yanks how golf should be played. Right up-to-date, major champions Paul Lawrie and Michael Campbell have been shown no respect and barely an invitation on the Champions Tour.

https://www.golfaustralia.com.au/feature/huggan-liv-golf-v-the-pga-tour-the-battle-pro-golf-needs-to-have-581286

[Sean_A]

Am I the only one offended by the play of the 911 card?

Maybe not, but the relatives of the victims are allowed to play that card. It's their call.

Sorry Tommy. It should not be assumed the Saudi State supported 9/11. I am fed up with social media style of frontier justice because x number of people believe it to be the case. Because Saudis carried out the attack should not imply the state supported it. A bit of evidence would be nice. To date, there hasn't been much. Isn't it enough to stick with what we do know?

Ciao

[Tommy Williamsen]

Am I the only one offended by the play of the 911 card?

Maybe not, but the relatives of the victims are allowed to play that card. It's their call.

Sorry Tommy. It should not be assumed the Saudi State supported 9/11. I am fed up with social media style of frontier justice because x number of people believe it to be the case. Because Saudis carried out the attack should not imply the state supported it. A bit of evidence would be nice. To date, there hasn't been much. Isn't it enough to stick with what we do know?

Ciao

Sean, I'm not assuming anything just saying that relatives of the victims are allowed to resent players signing up with LIV.

[Sean_A]

Am I the only one offended by the play of the 911 card?

Maybe not, but the relatives of the victims are allowed to play that card. It's their call.

Sorry Tommy. It should not be assumed the Saudi State supported 9/11. I am fed up with social media style of frontier justice because x number of people believe it to be the case. Because Saudis carried out the attack should not imply the state supported it. A bit of evidence would be nice. To date, there hasn't been much. Isn't it enough to stick with what we do know?

Ciao

Sean, I'm not assuming anything just saying that relatives of the victims are allowed to resent players signing up with LIV.

But that card has nothing to do with LIV! 🤷

Ciao

[Tommy Williamsen]

Am I the only one offended by the play of the 911 card?

Maybe not, but the relatives of the victims are allowed to play that card. It's their call.

Sorry Tommy. It should not be assumed the Saudi State supported 9/11. I am fed up with social media style of frontier justice because x number of people believe it to be the case. Because Saudis carried out the attack should not imply the state supported it. A bit of evidence would be nice. To date, there hasn't been much. Isn't it enough to stick with what we do know?

Ciao

Sean, I'm not assuming anything just saying that relatives of the victims are allowed to resent players signing up with LIV.

But that card has nothing to do with LIV! 🤷

Ciao

It seems to for them. That's all I'm saying.

[Jim Hoak]

The key factor to the success of the LIV Tour is what happens to the Majors, in my opinion.  If players can play the limited number of LIV events for big money and still play the 4 Majors, that may be all many players want.
But the main factor to the entry to the Majors, in my opinion, is whether the LIV events get counted for World Ranking Points.  Sure, the top guys--who have won recent Majors--may get into future ones--at least for a while.  But for most of the others, their way into the Majors is through OWGR points.  Without these points, the LIV Tour may fail.
In my opinion, these events--with small fields, 54 holes only, etc.--are more like exhibitions and shouldn't be given points.  And certainly the politics of the decision to award these points tilt away from the LIV Tour.
We'll see!

[Edward Glidewell]

The key factor to the success of the LIV Tour is what happens to the Majors, in my opinion.  If players can play the limited number of LIV events for big money and still play the 4 Majors, that may be all many players want.
But the main factor to the entry to the Majors, in my opinion, is whether the LIV events get counted for World Ranking Points.  Sure, the top guys--who have won recent Majors--may get into future ones--at least for a while.  But for most of the others, their way into the Majors is through OWGR points.  Without these points, the LIV Tour may fail.
In my opinion, these events--with small fields, 54 holes only, etc.--are more like exhibitions and shouldn't be given points.  And certainly the politics of the decision to award these points tilt away from the LIV Tour.
We'll see!

Even if they are awarded points, they almost certainly won't be enough to maintain their current OWGR. Too few events and too few players (especially highly ranked ones).

[Rob Marshall]

Am I the only one offended by the play of the 911 card?

Maybe not, but the relatives of the victims are allowed to play that card. It's their call.

Sorry Tommy. It should not be assumed the Saudi State supported 9/11. I am fed up with social media style of frontier justice because x number of people believe it to be the case. Because Saudis carried out the attack should not imply the state supported it. A bit of evidence would be nice. To date, there hasn't been much. Isn't it enough to stick with what we do know?

Ciao

Apparently they disagree with you concerning evidence.





https://www.golfchannel.com/news/should-be-ashamed-911-families-respond-phil-mickelsons-deep-empathy-comments

[Tony_Muldoon]

A possible scenario that I see is golf looking a lot like tennis in 5-10 years.


The tennis grand slam events survive being operated by entities outside the, ATP, tennis professional tour. The USTA, All England Lawn and Tennis, and the federations in France and Australia. Much like the USGA, ANGC, R&A, and PGA will continue to operate the four golf majors.


There's only one professional tour in tennis and only one professional golf tour may survive and it will either be the existing tours coming together and squeezing out the Saudis or the Saudis survive.


If this happened the TV coverage would be similar to tennis with extensive grand slam coverage (majors) and scant network coverage of tour events. Player on court (course) earnings would be concentrated at the very top with a 70% differential that now exists between the #1 ranked and #10 rank. The majority of money for the top would come from appearance fees and endorsements.


Tennis as a club sport is doing fine and golf will do fine as a club sport but won't achieve long term growth that it could have.


The Davis Cup survives and the Ryder Cup will find a way to survive.


Just a scenario that I could see evolving. I don't think this would be a good outcome for those financially vested in growing the game.

Bill, I think you are 'on the money'.  I wasn't just joking when I suggested Greg told the Saudi's Majors aren't that important.  For 60% of the Golfers I play with they are All that's Important and about 20% don't care about the professional game at all.

The LIV tour will 'win' but at what cost?.  Other Tours will be severely, maybe fatally wounded. But it's a huge gamble that occasional watchers (like me) will dip into our pockets to see some 'new' version of professional golf.   

When you have billions to invest, its a cert you're going to bet on a few turkeys.

[Tony_Muldoon]

One of the difference between tennis and golf is that tennis players do not regularly sit around after playing drinking in clubs with televisions on. The purchasing power associated with the bar seats at every club/course in the US will keep golf on television on weekend afternoons. These companies need to advertise to older wealthier guys somehow.


Also, I’m not fully sold on the idea that ROI doesn’t matter to them. It might be on a longer time horizon, but there still needs to be done narrative beyond them thinking we might like them if they give a bunch of golfers a ton of cash.

Whilst I agree fully with your second point I'm wondering how denying the Sunday afternoon TV spectator is going to grow this market? I thought Sunday viewers usually total more than the other 3 days combined? Strange.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I wonder what the Saudi's think the ROI is on this huge spend. Hundreds of millions of dollars is not meaningless even to them. The horse racing and soccer club investments at least result in purses and assets that bring money back into their coffers. Unless my assessment of what some future level of broadcasting rights could result in I do not understand any business rationale for this level of spend.

That is the whole point - there is no traditional "ROI." Nobody can compete with this model as it makes zero financial sense. The whole point is sportswashing, period.

This is an excellent point that is being ignored by many.  I thought of this when listening to the Fire Pit podcast today.  They talk about how the tour needs to change things.  But they can't compete with the Saudis as the Saudis have a completely different objective function that involves making them acceptable to the rest of the world rather than making money..

s


So how much more acceptable to the rest of the world has the LIV tour made them?    Think they are enjoying the publicity?


It's all about a long term investment strategy that may, or may not, pay off.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Even now there are more than 48 that have signed up to play. How do they decide the field? It seems some will be left out especially if players sign up to play all of the exhibitions.

[Ken Moum]

Even now there are more than 48 that have signed up to play. How do they decide the field? It seems some will be left out especially if players sign up to play all of the exhibitions.

A related question,  the players have taked a lot about freedom.


What does paying $100 million, or twice that, buy in terms of telling someone when and where to show up?


Gotta think the folks paying the $$ are expecting some obedience.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

But that card has nothing to do with LIV! 🤷

Yes, it does. Even if you restrict it purely to accepted, known fact… the majority of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi. That's not "nothing."

[Rob Marshall]

Ran into an a guy I know who works for the PGA Tour today. Not in any type of administrative position. He’s heard the Saudi’s have appropriated 100 billion for “sport washing” over the next 25 years with 3 billion to golf. The rest to sports like formula 1 racing. Anyone else heard those numbers?