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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #125 on: June 03, 2022, 09:45:19 AM »

I think the idea that the LIV players will get banned from the four major tournaments is far fetched. If they qualify they will be extended an invitation. The USGA, Masters, R&A and PGA of America don’t want to dilute their fields. If anyone balks it would be the PGA of America but I’m betting no to all.





I agree with this.


The impact though will be in exemptions into those events if LIV events generate 0 points. A couple years down the road and the currently exempt type guy that is not a champion will struggle to get in unless the Tours agree to allocate points.


Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #126 on: June 03, 2022, 09:48:25 AM »

I think the idea that the LIV players will get banned from the four major tournaments is far fetched. If they qualify they will be extended an invitation. The USGA, Masters, R&A and PGA of America don’t want to dilute their fields. If anyone balks it would be the PGA of America but I’m betting no to all.





I agree with this.


The impact though will be in exemptions into those events if LIV events generate 0 points. A couple years down the road and the currently exempt type guy that is not a champion will struggle to get in unless the Tours agree to allocate points.
+1

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #127 on: June 03, 2022, 09:50:47 AM »
To you and me, perhaps Sean...but to the golf viewing public, I think the proof is in the pudding.


They are playing for tons of money every week. That money ultimately comes out of our pockets.

Well done then, I guess the NBA and NFL take even more money out of my pocket and I watch even less of those products. I am content to see chaos with tour golf in the slim hope that something worth watching will be the result.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #128 on: June 03, 2022, 09:58:06 AM »
Right!


Don't let my position on this suggest I don't want a better viewing experience. I'm simply of the opinion that the PGA Tour is acting exactly how they should with regards to supporting players going to this tour.


As I've said, I firmly believe this will cause dramatic shifts in the entire professional golf viewing and participating experience going forward.

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #129 on: June 03, 2022, 10:04:35 AM »
A few of this board actually think that the over 40 participant in the LIV gives a flying armadillo about playing on the PGA Champions Tour after 50, when making what they will over the next year or two now ?


They'll take their multiple guaranteed millions and the associated Director of Golf position the well heeled backers of the LIV Tour locate for them and quietly enjoy their golden years.


I'm thinking that at least JK may consider my $0.02 somewhat on point.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #130 on: June 03, 2022, 10:23:30 AM »
I think it's on point Bruce.


I believe those comments about the over 50 guys was in the context of LIV failing and these guys finding themselves with a great deal of earning potential left.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #131 on: June 03, 2022, 11:00:14 AM »
I just don’t know what to make of the LIV tour. To be so PUBLICLY aligned with the Saudis is bothersome. For DJ to surprise RBC and skip their flagship tournament is extremely unprofessional.
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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #132 on: June 03, 2022, 11:02:00 AM »
Right!


Don't let my position on this suggest I don't want a better viewing experience. I'm simply of the opinion that the PGA Tour is acting exactly how they should with regards to supporting players going to this tour.


As I've said, I firmly believe this will cause dramatic shifts in the entire professional golf viewing and participating experience going forward.

Maybe. Whatever the agreements are with players is what they should enforce unless they think it harm the position of their players long term.

That said, the Tour has to some degree put themselves in a position to be attacked. The US Tour should have been making moves for a real world tour years ago. Their approach has been very conservative probably because they thought nobody would ever challenge their supremacy. Howece, with the increase of top flight foreign players since the 80s there is little excuse for such complacency.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #133 on: June 03, 2022, 11:13:05 AM »
Jim, +100 to your last post.

I have no clue why there would even be the slightest expectation for the PGATour to have open arms or tolerate this in the slightest.

The LIV tour is a very real, and very well funded, threat. 

SMH....

Kalen and Jim,

I have no idea why they would voluntarily do it either but that is why most western countries have legislation to prevent or restrict companies/individuals from abusing whatever monopoly position they have. That I think was the point that Lou was making.

If you ignore for a moment the nature or identity of the different parties ie. that the Saudi's do many things that we in our liberal democracies find repugnant; the nationalistic feelings you might have for the PGA Tour; and the fact that many of the players are millionaires many times over, then you'll see that it is one party (the Tour) using their monopolistic position to restrain another party (the players) in how they may earn a living by endeavouring to prevent a third party (the Saudi's) from entering the market.

Adrian refers to the players having signed up to an agreement when they joined the Tour that restricts them playing in competing events. Again, ignore the fact that some of these players (not all) are very wealthy, and consider what they are being asked to sign up to. They basically sign up to a pact that says they give their image rights to help promote golf events along with the image of the event sponsors but in doing so aren't guaranteed a return, and in doing so are prevented from trying their hand elsewhere.

All the while the Tour, which I understand is set up as a charity, has a chief exec on many millions a year (presumably guaranteed) while sitting on funds of c.$1bn. I'm not sure that scenario would garner much sympathy in other walks of life.   

Niall

Niall,

Nearly every professional sport gravitates toward one league where most of the best play.

NBA, MLB, NFL, NHL, UFC, Premier League. etc...and of course the PGATour.

This will always be the case, even if that top league changes from time to time.  So if you're gonna call all top professional leagues Monopolies, then so be it.  And to think they are gonna welcome the LIV tour with open arms, smiles, and atta-boyz....well that's just naïve.  To also think they're also going to pass on the fact that the Saudi's are funding it as a way to FUD it, then that would be silly of them too.

As far as I know, the PGATour has been supportive of competitive leagues elsewhere like the Euro Tour, Asian Tour, Canadian Tour, etc as well as the feeder tours.  But its not unreasonable for them to want to remain the top dog.

P.S. And the fact remains, the PGATour is absolutely not mandating that golfers can't play elsewhere....

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #134 on: June 03, 2022, 11:15:49 AM »
Right!


Don't let my position on this suggest I don't want a better viewing experience. I'm simply of the opinion that the PGA Tour is acting exactly how they should with regards to supporting players going to this tour.


As I've said, I firmly believe this will cause dramatic shifts in the entire professional golf viewing and participating experience going forward.

That said, the Tour has to some degree put themselves in a position to be attacked. The US Tour should have been making moves for a real world tour years ago. Their approach has been very conservative probably because they thought nobody would ever challenge their supremacy. Howece, with the increase of top flight foreign players since the 80s there is little excuse for such complacency.

Ciao


Sean,

The NBA has the vast majority of the best players from all over the world.  Should there be an expectation that teams are located all over the world?  Ditto for the NFL, MLB, and NHL.

And if you think there shouldn't be an expectation, then why would that be the case for golf?

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #135 on: June 03, 2022, 11:23:49 AM »
... more interested in the 23 yr old, than the over 40 guy...


doesn't anyone remember the AFL vs NFL pre-merger drama in the 60's?  Player poaching and why Pete Gogolak or John Brodie became famous?





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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #136 on: June 03, 2022, 11:40:50 AM »
Always has left the building. Remember when people went to work in the same office?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #137 on: June 03, 2022, 11:41:48 AM »
Right!


Don't let my position on this suggest I don't want a better viewing experience. I'm simply of the opinion that the PGA Tour is acting exactly how they should with regards to supporting players going to this tour.


As I've said, I firmly believe this will cause dramatic shifts in the entire professional golf viewing and participating experience going forward.

That said, the Tour has to some degree put themselves in a position to be attacked. The US Tour should have been making moves for a real world tour years ago. Their approach has been very conservative probably because they thought nobody would ever challenge their supremacy. Howece, with the increase of top flight foreign players since the 80s there is little excuse for such complacency.

Ciao


Sean,

The NBA has the vast majority of the best players from all over the world.  Should there be an expectation that teams are located all over the world?  Ditto for the NFL, MLB, and NHL.

And if you think there shouldn't be an expectation, then why would that be the case for golf?

Golf and team sports is not comparable. In the case of the NHL, it works closely through the draft and development of players with numerous pro and amateur leagues throughout the world. It's not quite the same thing as golf because there is no independent contractor aspect to hockey until you are free agent...but then a contract is quickly signed.

All that said, it wouldn't surprise me if the NFL and NBA eventually had international teams. If enough money can be made, why not?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #138 on: June 03, 2022, 12:01:33 PM »
But the NFL won't be sending it's players to help a Saudi Football League get up and running...

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #139 on: June 03, 2022, 12:10:47 PM »
Right!


Don't let my position on this suggest I don't want a better viewing experience. I'm simply of the opinion that the PGA Tour is acting exactly how they should with regards to supporting players going to this tour.


As I've said, I firmly believe this will cause dramatic shifts in the entire professional golf viewing and participating experience going forward.

That said, the Tour has to some degree put themselves in a position to be attacked. The US Tour should have been making moves for a real world tour years ago. Their approach has been very conservative probably because they thought nobody would ever challenge their supremacy. Howece, with the increase of top flight foreign players since the 80s there is little excuse for such complacency.

Ciao


Sean,

The NBA has the vast majority of the best players from all over the world.  Should there be an expectation that teams are located all over the world?  Ditto for the NFL, MLB, and NHL.

And if you think there shouldn't be an expectation, then why would that be the case for golf?

Golf and team sports is not comparable. In the case of the NHL, it works closely through the draft and development of players with numerous pro and amateur leagues throughout the world. It's not quite the same thing as golf because there is no independent contractor aspect to hockey until you are free agent...but then a contract is quickly signed.

All that said, it wouldn't surprise me if the NFL and NBA eventually had international teams. If enough money can be made, why not?

Ciao

Sean,

Those are all valid points and agreed team sports and individual ones are different.  However, I think there is an aspect to the PGA Tour using other tours as development and feeders.  For example the top 30 finishers on Korn Ferry automatically get thier PGA Card, or if you win I think its 3 events, its an automatic promotion. 

As to your question, I would ask that a different way.  If the PGA Tour makes enough money by playing just in North America, why go anywhere else?

P.S.  Going back to the LIV Tour.  One of the primary predatory practices of a Monopoly is to take losses for a specified period to put stress on a competitor(s) until they go out of business.  What LIV is doing, with massive signing bonuses and payouts that will certainly put them in the hole for quite awhile, sounds awfully similar.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2022, 12:13:58 PM by Kalen Braley »

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #140 on: June 03, 2022, 12:22:48 PM »
P.S.  Going back to the LIV Tour.  One of the primary predatory practices of a Monopoly is to take losses for a specified period to put stress on a competitor(s) until they go out of business.  What LIV is doing, with massive signing bonuses and payouts that will certainly put them in the hole for quite awhile, sounds awfully similar.


Kalen


Not really. They aren't established the way PGA Tour are, and don't already have a virtual monopoly the way the PGA Tour have. All businesses need to invest time or money or both to get established, and few expect to make profit straight off the bat.


Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #141 on: June 03, 2022, 12:51:53 PM »

I think the idea that the LIV players will get banned from the four major tournaments is far fetched. If they qualify they will be extended an invitation. The USGA, Masters, R&A and PGA of America don’t want to dilute their fields. If anyone balks it would be the PGA of America but I’m betting no to all.





I agree with this.


The impact though will be in exemptions into those events if LIV events generate 0 points. A couple years down the road and the currently exempt type guy that is not a champion will struggle to get in unless the Tours agree to allocate points.


I also agree up to a point. The world rankings are decided by a board made up reps from the PGA Tour, other tours and R&A, the USGA, the PGA of America and Augusta National (thank you google). The PGA Tour therefore has a hand on the tiller so to speak and I dare say could persuade the others to not allocate ranking points for LIV events, at least initially.


However bear in mind the purpose of the World Rankings is to rank golfers playing in different tours so as to determine who are the best golfers and that the rankings were initiated by the R&A for that purpose so they could determine the automatic qualification for the Open.


If you continue to ignore a chunk of the world's best golfers because they play on the new tour then frankly the rankings aren't really worth very much in terms of determining who should qualify for the Open, the US Open, Masters etc provided you assume that those organisations who run the majors want to have the best golfers.


Players jumping ship to the LIV Tour doesn't automatically make them worse players.


Niall

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #142 on: June 03, 2022, 01:10:54 PM »
P.S.  Going back to the LIV Tour.  One of the primary predatory practices of a Monopoly is to take losses for a specified period to put stress on a competitor(s) until they go out of business.  What LIV is doing, with massive signing bonuses and payouts that will certainly put them in the hole for quite awhile, sounds awfully similar.

Kalen

Not really. They aren't established the way PGA Tour are, and don't already have a virtual monopoly the way the PGA Tour have. All businesses need to invest time or money or both to get established, and few expect to make profit straight off the bat.

Niall



Niall,

Certainly understand they are currently not one, just pointing out one of the key characteristics of how Monopolies operate.  Another one is by either not following or banning labor laws and Saudi companies have a long history of dubious behavior in that area.  Its certainly well within their rights to throw massive amounts of unsustainable money at this new league, but gives us another taste of how these guys will operate in some kind of future state...its already quacking like the proverbial duck before its first event.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #143 on: June 03, 2022, 01:34:41 PM »
Right!


Don't let my position on this suggest I don't want a better viewing experience. I'm simply of the opinion that the PGA Tour is acting exactly how they should with regards to supporting players going to this tour.


As I've said, I firmly believe this will cause dramatic shifts in the entire professional golf viewing and participating experience going forward.

That said, the Tour has to some degree put themselves in a position to be attacked. The US Tour should have been making moves for a real world tour years ago. Their approach has been very conservative probably because they thought nobody would ever challenge their supremacy. Howece, with the increase of top flight foreign players since the 80s there is little excuse for such complacency.

Ciao


Sean,

The NBA has the vast majority of the best players from all over the world.  Should there be an expectation that teams are located all over the world?  Ditto for the NFL, MLB, and NHL.

And if you think there shouldn't be an expectation, then why would that be the case for golf?

Golf and team sports is not comparable. In the case of the NHL, it works closely through the draft and development of players with numerous pro and amateur leagues throughout the world. It's not quite the same thing as golf because there is no independent contractor aspect to hockey until you are free agent...but then a contract is quickly signed.

All that said, it wouldn't surprise me if the NFL and NBA eventually had international teams. If enough money can be made, why not?

Ciao

Sean,

Those are all valid points and agreed team sports and individual ones are different.  However, I think there is an aspect to the PGA Tour using other tours as development and feeders.  For example the top 30 finishers on Korn Ferry automatically get thier PGA Card, or if you win I think its 3 events, its an automatic promotion. 

As to your question, I would ask that a different way.  If the PGA Tour makes enough money by playing just in North America, why go anywhere else?

P.S.  Going back to the LIV Tour.  One of the primary predatory practices of a Monopoly is to take losses for a specified period to put stress on a competitor(s) until they go out of business.  What LIV is doing, with massive signing bonuses and payouts that will certainly put them in the hole for quite awhile, sounds awfully similar.

The Korn Ferry is owned by the PGA Tour.

How much is enough to make? Most businesses operate with the goal to increase profits.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #144 on: June 03, 2022, 04:13:37 PM »
... more interested in the 23 yr old, than the over 40 guy...


doesn't anyone remember the AFL vs NFL pre-merger drama in the 60's?  Player poaching and why Pete Gogolak or John Brodie became famous?


That's exactly what we have here with the younger players (Piot, especially) playing. Supposedly Piot is getting $6 million in a signing bonus and $250,000 per start in addition to the prize money he wins. It's the golf equivalent of an AFL team signing someone under the goalposts after the Gator Bowl. And as Piot has never been a PGA Tour member, he can't be penalized.


If I'm Greg Norman, I would have had reps at the NCAA finals trying to get high-ranking graduating seniors to sign up for Portland and the other U.S.-based tournaments.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
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Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #145 on: June 03, 2022, 04:53:30 PM »
I think the idea that the LIV players will get banned from the four major tournaments is far fetched. If they qualify they will be extended an invitation. The USGA, Masters, R&A and PGA of America don’t want to dilute their fields. If anyone balks it would be the PGA of America but I’m betting no to all.
The Opens already have diluted fields. If they didn't, they'd be the PGA Championship.  :)  (Which is itself slightly diluted because of the 20 PGA pros.) And the Masters had a weaker strength of field than the Northern Trust in 2021.

If Augusta National wants to not invite DJ to the 2023 Masters, they won't invite him. Clearly, the goal of those events is not to "don't dilute the field."
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #146 on: June 03, 2022, 04:59:11 PM »
I think the idea that the LIV players will get banned from the four major tournaments is far fetched. If they qualify they will be extended an invitation. The USGA, Masters, R&A and PGA of America don’t want to dilute their fields. If anyone balks it would be the PGA of America but I’m betting no to all.
The Opens already have diluted fields. If they didn't, they'd be the PGA Championship.  :)  (Which is itself slightly diluted because of the 20 PGA pros.) And the Masters had a weaker strength of field than the Northern Trust in 2021.

If Augusta National wants to not invite DJ to the 2023 Masters, they won't invite him. Clearly, the goal of those events is not to "don't dilute the field."


I’ll put up $100 that says no player is excluded from a Major because of their participation in the LIV. I’ll let you know where to send the $$$.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #147 on: June 03, 2022, 05:59:41 PM »
There are roughly 450 players in the NBA (30 teams, 15 players each, 13 eligible to play).  The top 50 players earned between $20 Million and some $46 Million on the court annually.  The average NBA player makes around $7.3 Million; the lowest $1 Million.  Its commissioner reportedly made $10 Million pre-Covid.


Based on the last full year pre-Covid (2018-19), Rory was the only player to crack $20 Million, and only because he earned the $15 Million FedEx bonus.  J.B. Holmes came in at #50 at $2.3 Million.  Johnson Wagner at #150 made $668k.  Mr. Monahans earns roughly $3 Million.


My understanding of PGA Tour governance is a bit different than the picture of a democracy painted here.  Perhaps the Player Advisory Council works similarly to member advisory boards at corporately-owned country clubs where they "advise" and management/ownership throws them a bone and proceeds to do as it pleases on the big things.


Or maybe the Black-dominated players in the NBA are a hell of a lot smarter than their "white privileged" counterparts playing golf.  BTW, I had an experience recently with a well-known Tour player on a TIO ruling which perhaps lends credence to this theory. Maybe the Player Advisory Council should meet with its NBA counterpart and explore best methods.  I don't know what would scare the bureaucracy more, LIV or a proper professional players' union.


Anyways, basketball players go overseas to ply their trade and come back without anyone's panties getting in a twist.  PGA and European Tour players go back an forth, and I am unaware of a rule that prohibits them from doing this if there is an event in their home tour.  PGA Tour players sometimes play their state opens and they were free to play in the Middle East before and accept appearance money.


So, while I understand why the Tour is acting as it is, a) they got themselves into this fix by not spreading the wealth well enough, b) by pretending that those who signed on the dotted line can be dealt with more like employees than the independent contractors they claim to be, and c) by acting arbitrarily depending on who the player is and who is sponsoring an event.  We have had unsavory sponsors in the U.S. (e.g. Stanford Financial) and there are far worse groups with their thumb on Golf's scale than the Saudis.


Though the PGA Tour is not a monopoly per se, it wants to act like one.  Funny, I wasn't aware that predatory pricing was a common practice employed by monopolies as these, by definition, have no credible competition.  I wouldn't argue that the Saudi's game plan is unsustainable- Greens and Lefties here may think that through sheer political power they will strand carbon in the ground, I suspect that this won't be the case and the Saudis will still be able to light their cigars with $100 bills for a few more decades.  We might remember that Amazon went 14 years without turning a profit- and that is pricing below full costs, what some might mistake as predatory pricing when, in fact, is a common approach to gain a foothold (btw, I like my few loss leaders at the grocery store even though I know that they don't make a dent on the so-called transitory inflation- paid $4.27/gal for gas at Costco today, more than double the price just 18 months ago- those Russian bastards!  ::) ).


The Tour, in fact, seems to be afraid that the upstart will draw away its players by offering more money than it is prepared to share with its members.  It seems to prefer the current structure which tightly controls supply (who plays and where) while supporting a $Billion+ rainy-day kitty for the benefit of whom?  The bureaucracy?  For Pete's sake, the Tour is supposed to be a non-profit!  Start spreading the wealth like other sports, let the players pay their income taxes, and even at $.50 on the $1, the temptation to jump ship will be diminished.  And if you lose some marginal players, there are any number waiting to replace them- I live-scored for Mito Pereira last year on the Korn Ferry Tour and he damned near won the PGA just a year later!  The bench is deep.


And yes, Niall, I was referring in part to the imbalance in bargaining power, the Tour vs. its individual members, and the governments' oversight even when all the Ts are crossed and the Is dotted.  I am not a lawyer nor do I talk to lawyers who practice in the antitrust space, but it seems to me that lobbing the threat of a potential life ban is grossly excessive and could very well invite judicial action.  Negotiate and let some of them play!  Clean your own house, bake some cookies, and make it so very few would want to leave.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2022, 06:07:08 PM by Lou_Duran »

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #148 on: June 03, 2022, 06:41:29 PM »
I’ll put up $100 that says no player is excluded from a Major because of their participation in the LIV. I’ll let you know where to send the $$$.
I didn't say they wouldn't, only that your reasoning why they wouldn't ban people was poor.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #149 on: June 03, 2022, 07:20:14 PM »
There are roughly 450 players in the NBA (30 teams, 15 players each, 13 eligible to play).  The top 50 players earned between $20 Million and some $46 Million on the court annually.  The average NBA player makes around $7.3 Million; the lowest $1 Million.  Its commissioner reportedly made $10 Million pre-Covid.


Based on the last full year pre-Covid (2018-19), Rory was the only player to crack $20 Million, and only because he earned the $15 Million FedEx bonus.  J.B. Holmes came in at #50 at $2.3 Million.  Johnson Wagner at #150 made $668k.  Mr. Monahans earns roughly $3 Million.


Hey Lou, how are things?
NBA income is $10bil+.  Estimates of PGA Tour revenue are hard to work out due to investments on golf courses, and charity links to dodgy sponsorship but direct revenue from tv rights, ticket sales and sponsorship isnt going to get within 10% of what the NBA generates. 

Quote
So, while I understand why the Tour is acting as it is, a) they got themselves into this fix by not spreading the wealth well enough,
A large driving force behind the new tours is actually the opposite of this.  Top players such as Mickelson feeling that the wealth is being spread too far,  that they don't want to subsidise no-name players who are pulling in $1mil+ a season whilst not directly generating any income for the tour.  In terms of as a percentage of revenue, the amount of money the PGA Tour pays players is in the same ball park of other major US sports.

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