Isn't it odd?

[Tony Ristola]

That Raynor and MacDonald didn't build in:


1. An optional route on their versions of Long? To honor the play down the 5th at the Old Course?


2. That considering they built steep and deep bunkers, didn't build Hell? It was one of the most famous hazards in the world in their day, and back when MacDonald was playing Hell, it wasn't the 100% revetted crater it is today. Back then only half of it was revetted, the other half (left side... if I recall correctly) was grass faced and didn't seem too deep.


One would think they'd have paid homage to Hell, and considering his love of the Bottle hole, and other holes with options, and allowing the golfer to "tack", he would have built options into some versions of Long.


Perhaps there were options but with the narrowing of courses, have disappeared.


The famous Mackenzie illustration of the multiple options came out years after NGLA was constructed, but MacDonald was surely familiar with the option of playing down the 5th.

[Tom_Doak]

Tony:


(a)  Are we sure that the alternate route around Hell was used by golfers in the 1870's ?  That's when Macdonald became fascinated with The Old Course.  He certainly expressed his preference for "big, bold bunkers stretching clear across the course".


(b)  In none of the old aerial photos I have seen, did Macdonald's courses offer a way around his cross bunker on the Long hole.  Certainly not at Lido . . . that is a deep and nasty bunker, and if you go in it with your second shot, you are absolutely not getting to the green in regulation.

[Tony Ristola]

Tony:


(a)  Are we sure that the alternate route around Hell was used by golfers in the 1870's ?  That's when Macdonald became fascinated with The Old Course.  He certainly expressed his preference for "big, bold bunkers stretching clear across the course".


(b)  In none of the old aerial photos I have seen, did Macdonald's courses offer a way around his cross bunker on the Long hole.  Certainly not at Lido . . . that is a deep and nasty bunker, and if you go in it with your second shot, you are absolutely not getting to the green in regulation.

T'is true... the 5th where Mackenzie drew the option may not have been fairway in the day, or too narrow to consider. Perhaps it was there but not discovered. But by the turn of the century, when MacDonald returned, one would think the option could have, would have existed. It was only 15-some years later when Mackenzie illustrated the option. Perhaps Mackenzie was on the cutting edge.


One would think MacDonald and Raynor would have become familiar with the illustration not too long after Golf Architecture was published. Obviously it didn't have an influence in the following years of their work.


Thanks for confirming what I'd read to date, and studied, that there had been no alternate routes on their versions of Long.


Looking forward to seeing Lido.

[Jeff Schley]

Hell bunker is no joke. I'm thinking the old version was grass faced on the entry side. I think with the wind against playing down the 5th is a better option as the fairway gets a little tight after about 150 or so down the right. There is OB in play on your 2nd shot down the right if you slice one as well. You have a better angle from closer to the 5th fairway on many pins as well.


Also, I'm not sure many courses want the maintenance to deal with such Tillie's Great Hazard.

[Tony Ristola]

Hell bunker is no joke. I'm thinking the old version was grass faced on the entry side. I think with the wind against playing down the 5th is a better option as the fairway gets a little tight after about 150 or so down the right. There is OB in play on your 2nd shot down the right if you slice one as well. You have a better angle from closer to the 5th fairway on many pins as well.


Also, I'm not sure many courses want the maintenance to deal with such Tillie's Great Hazard.

Tried posting a photo of Hell from the end of the 19th century. It's revetted on the right, the left is grass faced and flattish. Nothing like the modern crater.


There was a cape/bay to the left, the larger cape/bay to the right, and the bunker sand was flashed up the revet on the right side, making it slightly more user friendly. But, being unraked, windswept at best, and using the butter knives that passed for irons in those days... would certainly have been "Hell".

[Tony Ristola]

With the photo taken looking down on the golfers, and Scots not being known for their national basketball teams, one can imagine the right side of Hell was about 5-feet to 7-feet deep.


MacDonald and Raynor built bunkers as or more severe than this. I find it odd they didn't employ Hell in their versions of Long, when his goal was to produce versions of "ideal" holes, and he used other prominent historic features. I guess he didn't find "Long"... ideal.