Augusta has a chance to be a remarkable course. Remove the trees/ most bunkers.

[mike_malone]

The land there is so special that the golf would be extremely exciting if the openness were recovered.


  I would much rather watch some of these chips around the green than some having a shot from the trees while others don’t.


  Let’s see the creativity of these players on a truly unusual course.

[mike_malone]

 I don’t know the best time for the Masters when firmness would be most assured.

[mike_malone]

The trees and extra bunkers just make it like many other courses but without those the land would shine.

[Ronald Montesano]

Remove the trees, kill the patrons.

[Tim Leahy]

It is a remarkable course.   Go there!

[john_stiles]

The best time for firmness and conditioning, temperatures, etc. would be mid October to late November.


It is the driest time of the year, the rye would be established, temperatures are dropping a bit, but still warm.

Temperatures would be about like April but no spring downpours or strong storms.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I don't see any need for a tree on a golf course. BOBBY JONES

[Jim_Coleman]

   This thread was predictable. We must radically change one of the greatest and most iconic courses in the world. Pathetic.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I don't see any need for a tree on a golf course. BOBBY JONES

Then it was an odd choice for him to pick a tree nursery for his dream course, no?

[mike_malone]

   This thread was predictable. We must radically change one of the greatest and most iconic courses in the world. Pathetic.

Jim,


This is for you. What’s predictable is you.

[mike_malone]

One thing I feel at Oakmont is that they have maximized the impact of the land on their course. Oakmont doesn’t really have the greatest piece of land.


  Augusta has one of the best pieces of land and the resources to maximize it.


Going back to 22 bunkers particularly some the dramatic ones they had and reducing the impact of trees would make the course remarkable in my mind.

[Andrew Harvie]

I don't see any need for a tree on a golf course. BOBBY JONES

Then it was an odd choice for him to pick a tree nursery for his dream course, no?

That had trees on the golf course in the first place!

[Kalen Braley]

I don't see any need for a tree on a golf course. BOBBY JONES

Then it was an odd choice for him to pick a tree nursery for his dream course, no?

If he was still around, i'm betting he's says he made the choice for the terrain, not the trees..similar to say Cypress, Pasa, Pine Valley, etc...

[jeffwarne]

The best time for firmness and conditioning, temperatures, etc. would be mid October to late November.


It is the driest time of the year, the rye would be established, temperatures are dropping a bit, but still warm.

Temperatures would be about like April but no spring downpours or strong storms.

While October and November would probably be the best time for firmness on bermuda fairways and bent greens, this would not be the case if overseeded.
Didn't we learn this in the November 2020 Masters?
The rye is still soft that time of year due to its relative immaturity.
Palmetto(overseeded) was absolutely fiery,bouncy and fast this past late February March before the March 31 rain came, it's never fast or firm on young rye in the fall.


If I were czar at ANGC, sure I would remove/limb quite a few trees, mostly for spectators.
But not even close to a majority, just some removal of the Hootie era plus pruning that any course should do over time.
I'd also push back some of the ornamental stuff(trees right off 14 green on right, short right of 10, all the stuff left on 18)
What would 13 be with no trees at the corner?
Vertical hazards, where appropriate, make for interesting golf-Having attended The masters for nearly 50 years, some of my favorite, most memorable shost involved trees.
There were trees there to begin with and many were planted early as the course opened.But sure, I would remove some trees-say 15%-many of which are featureless redundant pines-which is a lot of trees.


Nuking every single tree on an inland parkland property is the same as planting trees on a links
variety and natural settings can work together.


Kalen,
They named the holes for TREES on the property!-Jones was around nearly 40 years after construction.
Not saying he didn't like the terrain, but he surely liked the trees enough to name the holes after them.

[Thomas Dai]

Wasn’t the originally bunkerless and virtually treeless par-4 7th (supposedly inspired by the 18th at TOC) designed to be played as a ground game hole but over time they observed that the ground and grass conditions didn't allow for a ground game hole so they re-did the green and surrounded it with bunkers?
Atb

[SB]

Ick.


Let's see what would happen if you eliminated trees:
#1  Probably not much.
#2  Would eliminate need to hit a draw
#3 - 6  No change.
#7  Would eliminate the only challenge.  Would be crazy easy without trees, that's why they planted so many.
#8  Would eliminate need to hit draw on second shot
#9, #10  Would eliminate the need to hit draw
#11  Would eliminate recovery from trees that happens a lot
#12  No change
#13  Would eliminate Mickelson's famous recovery from trees right.  I assume you wouldn't eliminate trees left, that would turn the hole into a boring short par 4
#14.  Not a huge impact.
#15  Would turn this hole into a boring par 4
#16  no effect
#17  Not a huge impact, but it seems like every year someone has to make a great recovery from the right..  The loss of the Eisenhower Tree (a tree) eliminated the only interesting thing about this hole.
#18  Would eliminate the need to hit a fade, would eliminate recoveries like Sheffler's.


I don't know, seems like eliminating the trees would eliminate the requirement to shape your ball, which, along with the greens, is what makes this course interesting.

[Kalen Braley]

The best time for firmness and conditioning, temperatures, etc. would be mid October to late November.


It is the driest time of the year, the rye would be established, temperatures are dropping a bit, but still warm.

Temperatures would be about like April but no spring downpours or strong storms.

While October and November would probably be the best time for firmness on bermuda fairways and bent greens, this would not be the case if overseeded.
Didn't we learn this in the November 2020 Masters?
The rye is still soft that time of year due to its relative immaturity.
Palmetto(overseeded) was absolutely fiery,bouncy and fast this past late February March before the March 31 rain came, it's never fast or firm on young rye in the fall.


If I were czar at ANGC, sure I would remove/limb quite a few trees, mostly for spectators.
But not even close to a majority, just some removal of the Hootie era plus pruning that any course should do over time.
I'd also push back some of the ornamental stuff(trees right off 14 green on right, short right of 10, all the stuff left on 18)
What would 13 be with no trees at the corner?
Vertical hazards, where appropriate, make for interesting golf-Having attended The masters for nearly 50 years, some of my favorite, most memorable shost involved trees.
There were trees there to begin with and many were planted early as the course opened.But sure, I would remove some trees-say 15%-many of which are featureless redundant pines-which is a lot of trees.


Nuking every single tree on an inland parkland property is the same as planting trees on a links
variety and natural settings can work together.


Kalen,
They named the holes for TREES on the property!-Jones was around nearly 40 years after construction.
Not saying he didn't like the terrain, but he surely liked the trees enough to name the holes after them.

Jeff,

I get it, its a nice sentimental touch with perhaps a bit of nostalgia sprinkled in, but if that property was dead flat, even if it had the most beautiful trees in the world, safe to say he'd had kept looking.

Its like buying an old car, like the one your Dad owned that he let you take on special dates.  When you finally buy similar car all those years later, of course you gonna name it Lucille after the little tart who did that thing with her tongue in the backseat all those years prior.  Nice memory yes, but its still all about the car. 

[jeffwarne]

The best time for firmness and conditioning, temperatures, etc. would be mid October to late November.


It is the driest time of the year, the rye would be established, temperatures are dropping a bit, but still warm.

Temperatures would be about like April but no spring downpours or strong storms.

While October and November would probably be the best time for firmness on bermuda fairways and bent greens, this would not be the case if overseeded.
Didn't we learn this in the November 2020 Masters?
The rye is still soft that time of year due to its relative immaturity.
Palmetto(overseeded) was absolutely fiery,bouncy and fast this past late February March before the March 31 rain came, it's never fast or firm on young rye in the fall.


If I were czar at ANGC, sure I would remove/limb quite a few trees, mostly for spectators.
But not even close to a majority, just some removal of the Hootie era plus pruning that any course should do over time.
I'd also push back some of the ornamental stuff(trees right off 14 green on right, short right of 10, all the stuff left on 18)
What would 13 be with no trees at the corner?
Vertical hazards, where appropriate, make for interesting golf-Having attended The masters for nearly 50 years, some of my favorite, most memorable shost involved trees.
There were trees there to begin with and many were planted early as the course opened.But sure, I would remove some trees-say 15%-many of which are featureless redundant pines-which is a lot of trees.


Nuking every single tree on an inland parkland property is the same as planting trees on a links
variety and natural settings can work together.


Kalen,
They named the holes for TREES on the property!-Jones was around nearly 40 years after construction.
Not saying he didn't like the terrain, but he surely liked the trees enough to name the holes after them.

Jeff,

I get it, its a nice sentimental touch with perhaps a bit of nostalgia sprinkled in, but if that property was dead flat, even if it had the most beautiful trees in the world, safe to say he'd had kept looking.

Its like buying an old car, like the one your Dad owned that he let you take on special dates.  When you finally buy similar car all those years later, of course you gonna name it Lucille after the little tart who did that thing with her tongue in the backseat all those years prior.  Nice memory yes, but its still all about the car. 

Ok, Hole #1 named,(dying to know more about Lucille though)
need 17 more stories

[Jeff_Brauer]

I tend to think that Augusta (like most things in life) evolved as it had to.  That the best minds of every year, conversant in professional golf tournaments addressing the design for a singular purpose might be right. 


Preposterous says a board of self-appointed golf course architecture experts, where the internet seems to have leveled the credentials of everyone.


Related, but I heard an interesting story at the Masters last week.  The supposedly Jones written verbiage regarding four principal advantages of challenging a hazard came from Mac, and BJ never really subscribed.  There is an old radio interview with Jones contradicting that and saying that all he did on tee shots was to give himself the widest possible girth away from hazards.  I wonder if those morsels would change any minds, or if the preferred narrative is just too ingrained to change?


Thrown out just for discussion.....since this is a discussion board.

[mike_malone]

I’m reminded of the thrill of the President’s Cup at Royal Melbourne. The greens at Augusta would thrill if longer recovery shots were allowed from many angles.

[Jason Thurman]

What problem are we trying to solve here?


I must've missed all the sideways chip-outs and the up-and-downs attempted from the woods... I didn't fail to notice the effect of the course's topography though, on both the macro (e.g., 10 fairway) and micro (e.g., 7 green) scale.

[mike_malone]

What problem are we trying to solve here?


I must've missed all the sideways chip-outs and the up-and-downs attempted from the woods... I didn't fail to notice the effect of the course's topography though, on both the macro (e.g., 10 fairway) and micro (e.g., 7 green) scale.

Just want the best it can be without excusing things.

[mike_malone]

Jeffwarne,


  Trees for doglegs are very strategic. Trees parallel to play are less desirable.

[Ira Fishman]

Just curious after skimming this thread if anyone who has posted besides Jeff Warne and maybe Jeff Brauer has played the course. I certainly have not. ANGC is not a must play for me, but not because of the trees and/or bunkers.


Ira

[David_Tepper]

Mike -

Assuming all/most of the trees were removed, what would you like or expect to see in those areas? Grass cut at fairway height? Grass cut at "2nd cut" height? Pine straw? Sandy waste areas?


DT