"Must be 14+"

[Carl Nichols]

A friend said the greens at his home course were recently running as fast as he's ever seen them.  He said they "must be 14+."   The greens there are usually fast, so they must have been really fast that day.  But I basically have no experience with a stimpmeter or any frame of reference here.  Are there courses that would essentially be unplayable at that speed?  How about ones that would be perfectly fine?   

[JESII]

I think a great number of the golden age courses become just about unplayable at that speed. There are 4 or 5 greens at my course, Lulu, that you couldn't finish.


I hear about 14 foot green speeds occasionally on TV but when you watch the ball roll you know they are less.

[Peter Pallotta]

The 7th green at Shinnecock that year, for the US Open in 2004, on Saturday and Sunday -- I think that's probably a bit too fast, even for the pros.

[John Kavanaugh]

I was so tired of being treated by my super as a stupid that I went out and got my own stimp meter. 14?!? Who’s the stupid now?

[SL_Solow]

I would be more than a little surprised if the greens stimped at 14.  Very few players have the ability to tell greens speeds as measured by a stimpmeter

[David Ober]

A friend said the greens at his home course were recently running as fast as he's ever seen them.  He said they "must be 14+."   The greens there are usually fast, so they must have been really fast that day.  But I basically have no experience with a stimpmeter or any frame of reference here.  Are there courses that would essentially be unplayable at that speed?  How about ones that would be perfectly fine?   

As others have said, a great many course would be virtually unplayable at speeds like that -- at least several/many greens would be.


And, yes, there are plenty of modern courses than can handle speeds like that. My old home course, an early Jack Nicklaus design, Bear Creek, in Murrieta, CA, had greens that ran that fast in the late fall all the way through March. Big swales in many of the greens, but the pin locations were in relatively flat sections, so not a big problem at those speeds.

[Carl Nichols]

The 7th green at Shinnecock that year, for the US Open in 2004, on Saturday and Sunday -- I think that's probably a bit too fast, even for the pros.

But do we know exactly how fast that green was?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Carne run their greens at about 9. If they were any faster, vast swathes of the new nine would be un-pinnable, not just the transitions.

[David Ober]

I would be more than a little surprised if the greens stimped at 14.  Very few players have the ability to tell greens speeds as measured by a stimpmeter

While that is true, some greens do actually get that fast. I've stimped them myself.

[Cal Carlisle]

The problem with greens that fast is that you need a pin placement on all 18 holes that can handle that speed, otherwise you have to slow some greens down just to locate a cup. Now players are trying to adjust not only to slick greens but are now contending with variable speeds between different greens. In theory, a course should only be as fast as your most severe green can handle.

[Peter Sayegh]

A few honest questions.
How do you know what the stimp is on any given day? Who do you ask? Why would you ask? Do you want/need to know that info before you tee off?

I've only seen an advertised stimp reading once in my life-at NLE Farmstead outside Myrtle Beach. It was on a whiteboard as you entered the pro shop. It meant nothing to me. Otherwise, I probably couldn't guess a stimp measure within ten percent.

Personally, I prefer slow greens over lightning ones because the former usually means more contour and interest.
If a course is successful with 14+ greens, good for it, but I doubt I would enjoy it.

[Anthony_Nysse]

McArthur's Fast Greens - YouTube


I have a video from my time at Old Marsh where we were 14'10" for a member event. Granted, the greens there are very subtle & nearly flat, so we wouldn't really lose any pin location.



I dont think those numbers are sustainable at any course-too many variables, but we have the ability to do it when conditions are correct.

[David Ober]

A few honest questions.
How do you know what the stimp is on any given day? Who do you ask? Why would you ask? Do you want/need to know that info before you tee off?

I've only seen an advertised stimp reading once in my life-at NLE Farmstead outside Myrtle Beach. It was on a whiteboard as you entered the pro shop. It meant nothing to me. Otherwise, I probably couldn't guess a stimp measure within ten percent.

Personally, I prefer slow greens over lightning ones because the former usually means more contour and interest.
If a course is successful with 14+ greens, good for it, but I doubt I would enjoy it.

A few honest answers:


Some of us are "into" that kind of thing and/or are on greens committees and it's discussed at meetings when we are prepping the course for a tournament or for daily play. For instance, at my club, our super would report that we were aiming for a 9.5 stimp during the hotter summer months.


Additionally, I like to know for curiosity's sake. People's views of green speeds are all over the map, and it's nice to have actual data to discuss, not hearsay. In other words: I certainly don't "need" to know. I "like" to know. Absent a posted speed, I am certainly able to figure out how the greens are rolling on the practice green -- assuming it's more or less the same speed as the greens on the course.


I've seen quite a few clubs where it's posted. It's definitely the minority, but maybe 10% to 20% of private clubs in SoCal post it, and they're usually not crazy: 11.5, etc.


You prefer slower greens. That's fine, of course. Personally, I prefer fast/firm greens because if I'm playing someone for $$$ or competing, then that's almost invariably an advantage I have.


That said, I also enjoy slower greens with bigger slopes for sure. Variety is the spice of life, after all. :-)

[Peter Sayegh]

David, thanks for the answer. Can you articulate your advantage (outside the money) on fast greens?   

Confidence? Mechanics? Familiarity?

[Jim Sherma]

Greens have certainly gotten faster over the 40+ years I’ve been playing in Pennsylvania. Proportionally public course greens have sped up much more than privates. Back in the 1980’s the difference when I would get on someplace nice from the muni courses I played regularly was crazy. Realistically we are talking going from 6-7’ to 9-10’. It was a huge shock to the system in terms of how much faster they were. Now most decent publics seem to be 8-10’ with privates 9-11’. Really not that much different other than the occasional round where they really went out of their way to juice the speed. I’m sure there are some Philly courses that might run them a little faster day to day. Point I’m making is that speed doesn’t separate you from the hoi polloi like it used to.

[David Ober]

David, thanks for the answer. Can you articulate your advantage (outside the money) on fast greens?   

Confidence? Mechanics? Familiarity?

All this is assuming I'm healthy and can actually play real golf, which I haven't been able to do in well over a year, dammit:


If I'm playing a net game, I want the course to present as tough as possible. As a decent am who is in the +1 to +2 range as a very, very short-hitting senior golfer, the best part of my game is inside 120 yards -- all facets of it: Chipping, pitching, bunker play, and putting. Fast, firm greens give me a huge advantage over the average net player because they are hugely more difficult to score on for players who are not used to playing in those conditions. And for many, even if they are used to them!!


If the greens are just fast and not necessarily firm, then my advantage is not as big.


In tournament play, even though I'm a short hitter, I am by necessity a "grinder." Grinders do well in tough conditions because we always have to grind, so we're used to it. Fast greens require plenty of grinding on the line/speed combo for both short game shots and putting. Get either one wrong and you're in trouble.


Slower greens are just much more forgiving -- no matter how much slope there is. The net player is much more apt to make par or bogey at worst on slow greens than they are on slick greens, where double and triple becomes much more of a possibility on more holes.


You asked! ;-)

[David Ober]

Greens have certainly gotten faster over the 40+ years I’ve been playing in Pennsylvania. Proportionally public course greens have sped up much more than privates. Back in the 1980’s the difference when I would get on someplace nice from the muni courses I played regularly was crazy. Realistically we are talking going from 6-7’ to 9-10’. It was a huge shock to the system in terms of how much faster they were. Now most decent publics seem to be 8-10’ with privates 9-11’. Really not that much different other than the occasional round where they really went out of their way to juice the speed. I’m sure there are some Philly courses that might run them a little faster day to day. Point I’m making is that speed doesn’t separate you from the hoi polloi like it used to.

I've noticed that as well.

[Ryan Van Culin]

I am skeptical that very many people have seen greens running over 14'. I know I never have. The course at which I caddy got the greens up over 13' for an annual event, but said they were very near to killing the greens to accomplish it.


Also, I am very skeptical that there are more than a few courses that would be playable at that speed. I would think it is very near the speed where the ball would never stop. The greens must have some slope to allow drainage, even in the flattest spots.


As mentioned, Lulu would be unplayable. A couple years ago, I played Lulu and Union League at Torresdale. I think Torresdale would have to keep the greens no faster than 11' to be playable.


In my opinion, I truly can never understand the obsession with extremely fast greens. I believe I putt better when they are "quick," which to me means something in the 10-11' range. Anything too much faster and you lose a lot of interesting hole locations, I think.

[Ken Moum]

IMHO,  this is just another dick-measuring exercise. 


Fussing over green speed is pretty damned low on my list of shit to worrry about.


But decided to stop complaining about turf conditions 50+ years ago. Bad lies favor good players.

[Mike Bodo]

A few honest questions.
How do you know what the stimp is on any given day? Who do you ask? Why would you ask? Do you want/need to know that info before you tee off?

Funny, but true. No one I know asks the starter or the guys in the Pro Shop what the greens are running before they tee off. Nor do I see anyone with stimp meters in their bags that they whip out on a particular green to see what it's running at. The majority of us (myself included) make educated guesses at best as to what we think they're running and whatever we deem it to be becomes gospel. LOL!

[Cal Carlisle]

IMHO,  this is just another dick-measuring exercise. 


Fussing over green speed is pretty damned low on my list of shit to worrry about.


But decided to stop complaining about turf conditions 50+ years ago. Bad lies favor good players.

Exactly! If only there was such an exercise for the course with the deepest mid-summer root depth.

[JESII]

I nominate Huntingdon Valley…I’ve seen the roots hanging out of the bottom of the newly cut cup.

[Cal Carlisle]

I nominate Huntingdon Valley…I’ve seen the roots hanging out of the bottom of the newly cut cup.

There's no better sight.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I nominate Huntingdon Valley…I’ve seen the roots hanging out of the bottom of the newly cut cup.

When is the last time you putted on roots?    (Just kidding. I hope I dont get killed for that...)

[JESII]

I would need to get the joke before killing you for it…