US Open Kind of Day at Bay Hill

[Terry Lavin]

I alluded to the challenging conditions today in the final round at Bay Hill on the Bear Trap thread, and five minutes later, Dan Hicks says, “it is a US Open kind of day” at Bay Hill.


I totally agree. It’s challenging, demanding and competitive, without being too punishing. Setup for a Tour event is sometimes dicey, but I think they got it right today.

[Brad Steven]

Whew - I don't think they could have got it more wrong but I guess having differing views is part of what makes for good a thread!  Bay Hill isn't a particularly good golf course in my view and rather than a difficult set up that identifies the most skill, they got a kind of difficult that neutralizes skill.  I enjoy the packed leader board and dramatic finish but watching ball after ball plug in bunkers or bounce through greens into ankle high rough making up and downs almost impossible on grassleess greens running 13 on the stimp is not my idea of a good set up.     

[cary lichtenstein]

I think the setup will cause a number of players to skip Bay Hill next year, it was good tv viewing as it was very competitive but you could feel the anguish of the players. Amazingly, Scotty drove the ball terrible all day and came out the winner. His par on 15 was key to his winning, he could just as easily had double bogey. Congrats.

[Eric LeFante]

Rory said good shots weren't rewarded. I'm not sure I agree with him. Were the greens so firm that good shots from the fairway weren't holding? I like the rough being high and you should have a difficult time holding greens from the rough. I like the sand is soft because most weeks on tour bunkers are not hazards. Maybe just too much sand in them because they shouldn't always plug.

[Matt_Cohn]

Watching players struggle through insane conditions to win a U.S. Open feels appropriate and right. When Gary Woodland was 12 or 13 under par at Pebble a couple years ago, it felt like he should have had to “endure” more to win *that* championship.


For whatever reason I can’t quite articulate, it felt like too much for a regular PGA Tour event.

[Kalen Braley]

Been watching Bay Hill for years and the course setup looked different this year

1)  Very green, very long, and very lush rough
2)  Baked out greens that almost looked yellow
3)  Narrowed fairways in a few spots.

[archie_struthers]

 




Thought it was awesome . Loved that on 18 Sheffler had to think about a 150 yards shot from the rough . He had to work to make par and played a beauty followed by a great lag putt. It is obvious that firm and fast had results if you are looking for par to be a barometer of skill.

[Eric LeFante]

It's a little sad that Bay Hill is going to need to cater to the players in order to get them to come back. Since it's the week before the Players most guys won't want to get beat up. I think it's been ridiculous to see minimal rough up until Bay Hill with almost no reward for hitting the fairway and no penalty for missing. Players have "leverage" in that they don't have to sign up if they don't like the set up and tournaments need the top players to come.

[John Kavanaugh]

I play at a course ten miles from Bay Hill. The conditions this week were an act of God. Florida is on fire!!!

[Buck Wolter]

Good shots and bad shots both ended up off the green in the same position due to the speed of the greens (and fairways) surrounded by crazy long rough. It was the opposite of a maintenance meld to me--maintenance disconnect? Slow the greens to 12 and mow the rough to make it playable but not easy, add some run-offs so bad shots don't stop where they land around the greens. Better than soft everywhere but too much randomness especially for a tour event. (hat tip Andy Johnson as I thought much of this but he put it together for me on his podcast today).

[Jeff Evagues]

If the guys don't shoot 25 under they start crying. There is no such thing as unfair, they keep forgetting the object of the tournament is to take one stroke less than everyone else.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Rory said good shots weren't rewarded. I'm not sure I agree with him. Were the greens so firm that good shots from the fairway weren't holding? I like the rough being high and you should have a difficult time holding greens from the rough. I like the sand is soft because most weeks on tour bunkers are not hazards. Maybe just too much sand in them because they shouldn't always plug.

Rory should count how many bunkers he visited over the last two days, not to mention a close shave with a boundary fence/OB, and then ask himself was he really playing/swinging as well as he said.

[John Kavanaugh]

The rains finally came last night. The dream is over.


Being a low spin low ball hitter myself I could give a damn if balls roll out off the green if I can just believe I’ve still “got it” after a monster bomb of a drive.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Bay Hill had a new irrigation system put in last year that allows them to water the rough for overseeding & not have to water the fairways. (back to back heads, similar to greens)


So, this year they did not overseed fairways, so the course played really fast & firm. Up until last night, we had been 4" below average on rain & 4* above average with temperatures over the last 90days, so that certainly helps.

[MKrohn]

 Rory's contention that the good shot not being rewarded is presumably in reference to balls going thru the green and ending up in deep rough, perhaps he will expand on what he specifically meant before the Players. The bad/long shot ends up in a similar position to the well struck shot that just rolls through the green. 17 seemed like an example.


Course needs some run off areas around the greens rather than frogs hair, haven't really resolved whether the term is more obnoxious than the actuality.


Great shot from Scheffler into 18, got the right penalty for not driving it straight enough, played a superb shot under pressure to get out of the trouble and win.

[Jerry Kluger]

The claim that good shots were not rewarded begs the question: what is a good shot?  The correct shot is the good shot under the conditions at that time.  Just because a pro cannot hold a green doesn't mean that they hit a good shot - it wasn't the correct shot in the conditions they were playing under.  I was watching and at one point a player got on a green but well short of the hole and I believe that it was Bones who said the following before Horschel hit his shot: If he hits his ball where the previous shot wound up he will go off the back of the green - Horschel hit it to that spot and went over the back.  Sometimes even the pros cannot try to hit it close.

[Brian Finn]

While I wouldn't like this sort of setup for regular play, I believe it makes sense for several tour events annually.  The setup seemed to call for very conservative play, and strong course management.  Restraint.  Irons off tees, approach shots to middle of the green in most cases.  When most of the contenders can fly a 3 iron 240+, and have it roll out 20-40 or more yards, even the 500 yard holes are playable with an iron off the tee.  With so much water and OB in play at Bay Hill, I would think some players would try this approach.  Many (most?) tour players seem to feel they are entitled to bomb driver to within wedge range on nearly every hole, and do so without the challenge of deep rough, or some other hazardous or unpredictable lie.  I did not find the tournament particularly compelling, but I do think the setup (intentional or coincidental) created certain unique challenges for a regular tour stop, which I appreciated.  I believe a great course manager and shot maker, particularly one with some mental toughness, would have thrived in this event. 

[Peter Flory]

When you look at the social media reaction to Rory's comments, it seems like the vast majority of fans enjoyed watching the pros get challenged, they liked the carnage, and they liked that there was a turbulent leaderboard with players going both directions on it. 


I wonder how much of the 20 under setups are to cater to the players vs the fans. 

[Terry Lavin]

When you look at the social media reaction to Rory's comments, it seems like the vast majority of fans enjoyed watching the pros get challenged, they liked the carnage, and they liked that there was a turbulent leaderboard with players going both directions on it. 


I wonder how much of the 20 under setups are to cater to the players vs the fans.

There’s plenty of anecdotal evidence to support the proposition that fans like to see the pros suffer, especially in majors. There is a fine line in setup for a Non-major, in which the players struggle to shoot more than a couple under par per round.


Reading the responses it seems the new irrigation method for the rough made the course tougher, but firm and fast conditions combined with a brisk wind is great defense for a course trying to challenge pro golfers.


I’m not a big fan of the prototypical Florida golf course with so many forced Carrie’s over water, but I enjoyed this iteration of the Arnold Palmer Invitational.

[Tim Martin]

I posted on another thread that the course seemed too hard to interest me as a player. As a viewer I enjoyed it.

[Pat Burke]

This type of setup is more difficult with the low spin equipment IMO.
Forcing distance control and more spin to stop shots changes things







The ability to water roughs only is an important point.


I don’t like a hole like 17 with that flat a green being so firm a good shot can’t stop, but I do remember playing there and for me(a medium height launch guy), I had to (At times), aim at a spot At the back left bunker a hit a pretty big cut (mid to long iron back then) to NOT have it release over the green.


Shallower/firm targets are a huge defense against current players. 

[archie_struthers]

 


Think Jerry K's analysis was spot on....bomb and gauge was not the proper strategy this week at Bay Hill. For Rory et al to be crying is a bad reflection on their thought process....just saying

[Terry Lavin]

Think Jerry K's analysis was spot on....bomb and gauge was not the proper strategy this week at Bay Hill. For Rory et al to be crying is a bad reflection on their thought process....just saying

I’ll affirm these judgments. 

[JohnVDB]

Just a few weeks ago Jon Rahm was complaining about how the courses were too easy.  This week we get told this one was too tough,  you can’t please everyone.  The weather out west was incredibly mild. Florida had hot dry, but somewhat windy weather.


The one hole that seemed a bit over the top to me was 17, but that isn’t the first time it has been that way and everyone had to play the same holes.


Schafter deserved the win by gutting it out and making the shots when he needed them.

[Jeff Schley]

Is there a course that wouldn't benefit from playing firmer and faster? In Florida I would think hard to do, but I think we have seen what it can do at Bay Hill.