Old Course Pins - A, B, C or D

[Tim Gallant]

I saved a pin sheet from my round a few weeks back, which I attach below:








Question. If you have a game arranged, which pins would you be hoping for and why? How would this change depending on the wind?

[Matthew Essig]

Has to be B, right?

[Kyle Harris]

They’re doing this now?! Americans really do ruin everything. 

[Andrew Harvie]

They’re doing this now?! Americans really do ruin everything. 

You guys suck

[Scott Warren]

Has to be C or D on the strength of the shots that means you get to hit at 11 & 17 alone. Plus 2, 3, 7 & 12 the C&D pins are IMO the best ones on what I think are probably the most interesting greens outside of 11 & 17.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I saved a pin sheet from my round a few weeks back, which I attach below:

Ugh.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

I'm trying to decipher Erik, Kyle and Drew's reaction


Are they against any information on the hole placement of the day?


Being a traditionalist I'd probably agree - except that as a guide for greenkeepers it's essential.

[Kyle Harris]

I'm trying to decipher Erik, Kyle and Drew's reaction


Are they against any information on the hole placement of the day?


Being a traditionalist I'd probably agree - except that as a guide for greenkeepers it's essential.

How is it essential? Golf is hunting. Does the quarry ever present itself as a target according to some chart?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I'm trying to decipher Erik, Kyle and Drew's reaction

I dislike that you might show up on three different days and if they all happen to be "B" days you'll play almost the same hole locations.

A course nearby has five hole locations, I think (1 through 5), and I once played it six times in a row and they all happened to be on "3" days. Why can't the first hole be a "1" and the second hole be a "4"?

[John Chilver-Stainer]

 Kyle,
your interpretation of golf as hunter against hunted is an interesting insight into your mental state of mind . Beware the hunter maybe become the hunted and the bunkers may swallow you up.

 
Erik,
your entitlement that each hole location should be in a different area each time you choose to play is a tough one to fulfill. Usually each area has 3 to 4 possible hole locations, so that should be enough variation if the greenkeeper or manager choose to use the same area consecutively for maintenance reasons.
Of course if the green is flat it makes no difference – all the putts are the same.

 
To both of you, have you thought about the maintenance needs?

 
The hole location usually gets changed on a daily basis or maybe 5 time a week.
The old location and say a 1.50m radius around it needs to recover over a 14-21 day period.
So at any time 10-15 old locations are in a period of recovery.
If the hole location is just chosen at random it‘s easy to see how the overview of the management of hole locations just becomes a lottery.

 
I read that in the US there are programmes where the exact location of each hole is GPS‘d and then the  sequencing of each hole is predetermined for each day of the season.

 
Personally I don‘t have a problem with that, as on my undulating greens I occasionly get feed back from players complaining about impossible hole locations cut for the day on the edge of fall offs or in strongly inclined areas, which were never designed to be hole locations.
If the hole locations are predetermined, then there is less chance that a „stupid“ pin position is chosen just because there was nowhere else to go because of old hole locations.

 
Of course on flat greens this is less of a problem, and that‘s one of the reasons flat greens are preferred for ease of maintenance, at the cost of interesting and entertaining undulating greens.

[Niall C]

John


I don't always agree with Kyle and Erik or maybe even seldom agree    however in this instance I think I agree with them. While recognising the need for rotating the pin positions for agronomy reasons, why do you need to do it in such a way that if the pin is in one particular quadrant on the first hole then that dictates which quadrants the pin will be in on the other holes ? And more than that, why do you need to give the golfer all that information ? Golf used to be a simple cross country game and now we seem intent in reducing it purely to statistics.


Niall

[Sven Nilsen]

I dislike that you might show up on three different days and if they all happen to be "B" days you'll play almost the same hole locations.

Is this really a problem for the majority of the people playing The Old Course?


I'd venture most are one and done and happy to be there.


Sven

[Erik J. Barzeski]

your entitlement that each hole location should be in a different area each time you choose to play is a tough one to fulfill. Usually each area has 3 to 4 possible hole locations, so that should be enough variation if the greenkeeper or manager choose to use the same area consecutively for maintenance reasons.

Unless the greens get so beat up that they take the full cycle to recover, I think you can create "different" courses with different hole locations on a day to day basis. Especially when you have days with less play because it's raining, etc. You can move hole locations around.

If there are five hole location "areas" on a course, and you have it in position 3 having just been in 2 and 1 the days before, occasionally you can skip 4 and put it in 5 one day. Do that on four or five or six greens per day, or even three times a week, and do it somewhat randomly and you will mix up the "set" throughout the whole season.

It stinks, IMO, when you get to the first green and see that the hole location is the same as the last time you played it, and you know that the next 17 are all going to be the same as well.

To both of you, have you thought about the maintenance needs?

Of course.

But I've seen enough courses that will mix things up that I know it can be done. Typically less severe and larger greens, sure, but at the Old Course with those greens I feel like they could easily just "look" at the green each day and put the hole in a location that seems pretty healed up, and not limit it to five locations. I'd be disappointed if I saw the hole location on 1 and if it was the same as the last time I played it, and I knew the other holes were almost all going to be similar. I might only play the course two times in my life (current count: 1).

Is this really a problem for the majority of the people playing The Old Course?

Imagine you get to play it twice, and the second time… the holes are all the same as the first. That wouldn't take away a little bit?And I was more talking about other courses that do this, like I said in my little story.

[Paul Jones]

A friend who was a super in the "old days" told me that he would always try to setup 6 pins in the front, 6 middle and 6 back.  I did not study the charts, but would guess those letters follow that pattern.

[Paul Jones]

I miss when the clubs would use the flag color: Red-Front, White-Middle, Blue-Back.  I suppose some clubs still do, most now club logo and reflector for the laser guns.

[Brian Finn]

If I was lucky enough to play the Old Course multiple times in one visit, I would not really care where the holes were located on each green.  The likelihood of having the same approach shots, chips, or putts is low (for me, at least), and frankly, I would just be thrilled to get to walk and play the course.  For most of us, getting just one round on the Old is a huge achievement, and details like hole locations are low on the list of concerns. 

As to Tim's original question, I am having a tough time deciding which letter I would prefer.  I start with holes 11 and 17 and go from there, but at the end of the day, I can't pick a favorite.  That's like because I don't know the course well enough to recall every green in great detail.  For sake of providing an answer, I will choose C, since it seems to be the best for the Road Hole.

[Kalen Braley]

Not really sure why its thought the pins aren't in variable locations.

For example, I tallied up all the locations by general area of the green for the "A" day.

Front Left - 4
Front Right - 5
Back Left - 4
Back Right - 5

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Niall,


So you're also an ugh?


Well as a traditionalist I'm probably an ugh too.  I find part of the fun, mystery, judgement - call it what you like - is the ability to eyeball the distance. If you get it right it's extra sweet.
Mind you it's not long before you can download all the GPS'd hole locations for the day and read them off your wrist watch.
That would save time and a lot of hassle for managers.


Erik,
I take your point that the ABCD method could lead to repetition.
However within each hole area there will be a variety of hole locations that should spice it up enough to keep most people happy.
If your green has 50 hole locations, then sure you can probably manage on an ad hoc basis, but undulating greens may only have 15 Locations, enough for a 3 week turnaround for grass recovery.


I still maintain that to manage the wear on the green and the recovery of the grass, the greenkeeper is better off with a guide, just don't show it to the punters.
 

[Bill Gayne]

If the greens are well designed and built should it matter? All four quadrants should provide interest regardless of the mix. In the case of TOC it's hard to imagine any one combination is superior to any other.

[Jeff Schley]

If the greens are well designed and built should it matter? All four quadrants should provide interest regardless of the mix. In the case of TOC it's hard to imagine any one combination is superior to any other.

Bill I'm in total agreement and for TOC those greens are enormous so 1 quadrant is equivalent to an entire Pebble Beach green or two. I don't see what the issue is with pin positions using a 4 quadrant rotation.

[Marty Bonnar]

If the greens are well designed and built should it matter? All four quadrants should provide interest regardless of the mix. In the case of TOC it's hard to imagine any one combination is superior to any other.

Bill I'm in total agreement and for TOC those greens are enormous so 1 quadrant is equivalent to an entire Pebble Beach green or two. I don't see what the issue is with pin positions using a 4 quadrant rotation.

This was mind-boggling!:
https://golf.com/news/pebble-beach-greens-2019-us-open-fox-sports/


Cheers,
F.

[Kalen Braley]

Marty,

That's an interesting graphic in that link, even if its a bit misleading.  I measured thier square footage a year ago with Google Earth, and got similar numbers:

1-12 at Pebble is about 37,000 sq feet combined and 5/13 at TOC is about 35,000.

It seems thou the article should also point out that while yes Pebble's greens are tiny, the 5/13 combo is also insanely large.   

[Tim Gallant]

This certainly took off...just not the way I thought it would 


I thought it was interesting to consider the coolest pins on each green (factoring in wind direction) and see if there was a letter that corresponded to more of those interesting spots. I'm not well enough acquainted with the course to say with any degree of expertise, but I would think some of the coolest pins on each green include:


East-ish
1- A/B
2 - C/D
3 - C/B
4 - All have their merits
5 - D
6 - D
7 - All pretty cool; partial to D
8 - D/B
9 - B
10 - A/D
11 - All are great; you haven't lived until you've seen an A pin here. Wowza
12 - B/A (or just over the crest on the other two)
13 - Always love a B pin here
14 - All amazing
15 - B/A
16 - B
17 - D/C/B
18 - B but C is cool


Doing this I realised that almost every green has fantastic pins in almost every section of the green. It just depends on the shot you want a player to hit. For those that know the course intimately, it would be good to know what you think! I'll maybe post my thoughts on how those pins might change depending on a prevailing wind if there's enough chatter

[Thomas Dai]

As an aside, kind of sad if they are handing out hole location sheets at TOC. Distance and positional assessment are skills in their own right, and at TOC an important part of the experience of playing such a special and historic course. Also at TOC you can see the flag positions coming ‘home’ as you play ‘out’ and then there are the local caddies and their nous. Playing TOC is a special experience and the judgement aspect is imo an important aspect of the experience. Can’t help but feel that giving out hole locations seems to be dumbing-down the experience.
Atb

[Niall C]

Marty,

That's an interesting graphic in that link, even if its a bit misleading.  I measured thier square footage a year ago with Google Earth, and got similar numbers:

1-12 at Pebble is about 37,000 sq feet combined and 5/13 at TOC is about 35,000.

It seems thou the article should also point out that while yes Pebble's greens are tiny, the 5/13 combo is also insanely large.   

I wonder how the comparison would look if you measured the first 12 greens at TOC (taking the areas for the double greens and dividing by two) and compared them to PB or indeed any other major course.


Niall