Green speeds are hurting the game

[John Blain]

Very good article here written by Andy Johnson of The Fried Egg. He also posted it on Twitter. He makes a lot of great points but, unfortunately, I don't see clubs backing off. The horse is out of the barn.


 [size=78%]Slow Down, You're Moving Too Fast - Golf Course Architecture & News (thefriedegg.com)[/size]

[Tim Martin]

John-Andy gets it right. When you see a good/great set of greens softened for the purpose of ramped up speeds it’s disappointing especially if you are familiar with the original version. There is a better way than to employ the toe of the putter and utter a Hail Mary.

[John Blain]

John-Andy gets it right. When you see a good/great set of greens softened for the purpose of ramped up speeds it’s disappointing especially if you are familiar with the original version. There is a better way than to employ the toe of the putter and utter a Hail Mary.

I agree, Tim. I remember playing Quaker Ridge several years ago late in the fall and they were taking some slope off a few of the greens simply so they could run them at crazy speeds because that is what the membership wanted. True insanity.
I hope you're well.
-John

[A.G._Crockett]

I don’t know where you guys are, but if you’re not in the South, you should come down this summer and play some courses with Champion Bermuda.  They are NOT soft, they are absurdly fast, and it just isn’t much fun.


Tournament rounds take forever because of the amount of time spent on the greens just grinding over putts. The courses that wer “early adopters” and didn’t know enough to recontour can be awful, at least IMO.

[Tim_Weiman]

John-Andy gets it right. When you see a good/great set of greens softened for the purpose of ramped up speeds it’s disappointing especially if you are familiar with the original version. There is a better way than to employ the toe of the putter and utter a Hail Mary.

I agree, Tim. I remember playing Quaker Ridge several years ago late in the fall and they were taking some slope off a few of the greens simply so they could run them at crazy speeds because that is what the membership wanted. True insanity.
I hope you're well.
-John

It is a terrible trend.

[JESII]

Just to make sure this continues as a conversation I’ll say…I sure do hate when a ball grinds to a halt on the way down a 5% slope!

[David Ober]

It's ... complicated.


If you go to an extreme, of course most people will agree with that statement, but most clubs are not going there.


I enjoy the challenge of fast/firm greens -- as long as they suit the course. That's a tough needle to thread, but I like when a course/club tries to thread it, rather than giving up and having soft/slow greens all the time. Also, keep in mind that threading that needle is very region/course specific.


For instance, in my region (Inland SoCal), it's common for greens to be very soft and 9 - 10ish in the late spring and all the way through early fall because it just gets so damned hot mid and late day. You have to dump water on them in the morning to make sure the poa annua lives through the day! I get that. So we have very soft, slow(ish) greens for six months of the year at most courses around me, my course included.


Now, come late fall, we can firm up the greens and speed them up if we choose -- which I very much like. Our course is simply a pushover when the greens are soft. Good players shoot in a very, very narrow range on our course when it's soft and slow. You can attack virtually all pins, and the penalty for short-siding is greatly reduced when you can nip short game shots and get them to stop to virtually any pin from virtually anywhere.


Just one foot of stimp difference and a 30%ish increase in firmness gives our course a little "teeth" and makes missing in certain places a true penalty -- which is should be!


I could go on and on about this, but just know that lots of players do like fast(ish), firm(ish) greens precisely because they are more challenging than soft, slow(ish) ones.

[David Ober]

Just to make sure this continues as a conversation I’ll say…I sure do hate when a ball grinds to a halt on the way down a 5% slope!

Not sure if that's facetious or not, Jim, but I absolutely hate when our course's greens get so slow that one has absolutely no fear on short, downhill sliders. Our greens have tons of slope/pitch and they are a blast to play when at about 11. When they are 9.5, they are not challenging enough for as short as the course plays.


IMHO, of course.

[JESII]

Not facetious at all…my part about continuing it as a conversation (as opposed to a cheering brigade) was simply to play devils advocate. As you know, the vast majority on here would rather putt through the rough than tweak a green.


Good firm fast greens are the ultimate sign of skilled management in my opinion…[when sustained, and not once per year...]Edited in.


Tom Paul had a great solution/recommendation; go to the most severe green and determine it’s maximum playable speed and use that as a target across the board.

[David Ober]

Not facetious at all…my part about continuing it as a conversation (as opposed to a cheering brigade) was simply to play devils advocate. As you know, the vast majority on here would rather putt through the rough than tweak a green.


Good firm fast greens are the ultimate sign of skilled management in my opinion…


Tom Paul had a great solution/recommendation; go to the most severe green and determine it’s maximum playable speed and use that as a target across the board.

Love that. At our club, that's 11.5 to 12, max.

[Thomas Dai]

Trueness and consistency of roll is paramount and I suggest more important than pure speed.
More severe contours tend to be associated with slower green speeds and more severe contours tend to shed water during and after downpours quicker too, which is useful, and then there’s the additional costs in manpower, machinery, construction, inputs etc that come with the desire for all year round pure speed.
Atb

[David Ober]

Trueness and consistency of roll is paramount and I suggest more important than pure speed.
More severe contours tend to be associated with slower green speeds and more severe contours tend to shed water during and after downpours quicker too, which is useful, and then there’s the additional costs in manpower, machinery, construction, inputs etc that come with the desire for all year round pure speed.
Atb

No one wants fast/bumpy. No one.


Trueness very, very important, of course.

[Tommy Williamsen]

When I was a kid Lou Graham, who was the assistant at my club, joined the TOUR. One of the most difficult things about the TOUR was adjusting to the different grasses and lengths. He told me that on some courses tees have longer grass than others. Greens have different speeds, bunkers were not uniform. Not the case today. In some ways they play the same course set up every week. The biggest changes are playing Bermuda on the Florida swing.

[Tim_Weiman]

Just to make sure this continues as a conversation I’ll say…I sure do hate when a ball grinds to a halt on the way down a 5% slope!

Not sure if that's facetious or not, Jim, but I absolutely hate when our course's greens get so slow that one has absolutely no fear on short, downhill sliders. Our greens have tons of slope/pitch and they are a blast to play when at about 11. When they are 9.5, they are not challenging enough for as short as the course plays.


IMHO, of course.

David,


Is there any problem keeping your greens at 11? If so, do you know what percent of the time it can be done?

[Rob Marshall]

Not facetious at all…my part about continuing it as a conversation (as opposed to a cheering brigade) was simply to play devils advocate. As you know, the vast majority on here would rather putt through the rough than tweak a green.


Good firm fast greens are the ultimate sign of skilled management in my opinion…


Tom Paul had a great solution/recommendation; go to the most severe green and determine it’s maximum playable speed and use that as a target across the board.

Love that. At our club, that's 11.5 to 12, max.

That's too fast for a lot of clubs and I think unrealistic to maintain with rain, humidity, etc in most of the country. Greens Super has to be the hardest job in golf. Impossible to keep everyone happy. Impossible.

[Niall C]

Would anyone care to put this issue into context ? For instance is this just a first world problem ie. high end US clubs, or is it a universal problem ? For instance from what I can see your average UK members club isn't digging up there greens to make them more receptive to higher green speeds.


Niall

[JESII]

Along with Oakmont, the top course I think of with respect to lightening fast greens would be Royal Melbourne.


I suspect the high end clubs near London have a similar arms race.

[Richard Hetzel]

Personally, I love fast greens. May not be good for maintenance but I hate slow greens. They don't have to be US Open fast, but you get my point.

[cary lichtenstein]

Part of the joy of golf is the challenge of playing on different types of grasses, different types of sand, different types of maintenance. That's why they have practice ranges, putting greens, etc. I always enjoyed traveling and the challenge of the differences.


I once took a lesson with the great Johnny Revolta. 1 hour in a sand trap, he threw balls in with his giant hands. Regardless of the lie, I had to hit it to pins he selected. Best lesson I ever had. he never said a word other than hit is. I learned to adapt on the spot.


I have to laugh about the only time I played at Oakmont. I had no warning about the green speeds, no warning that the greens slopped downhill and were like putting on ice.

[Tim_Weiman]

Personally, I love fast greens. May not be good for maintenance but I hate slow greens. They don't have to be US Open fast, but you get my point.

Do you favor softening greens to permit faster speeds?

[David Ober]

Personally, I love fast greens. May not be good for maintenance but I hate slow greens. They don't have to be US Open fast, but you get my point.

Do you favor softening greens to permit faster speeds?

You didn't ask me, but I do not.

[Mike_Trenham]

I hear a lot about getting greens fast and much less about making them firm.  From what I see to challenge the best players firmness is much much more important than speed. 


If the tradeoff was 9.5-11.0 and firm would that be more manageable / achievable, than say 11.0+ as the target?


Huntingdon Valley is the only place I know where you are guaranteed the firmest conditions possible.  I know of plenty of places to expect fast greens.

[Brad Lawrence]

I disagree.  I want the greens fast and firm.  Super fast, super firm. 

[Jeff Schley]

I think green speeds have become a stat for egos. Like the SNL skit.

[Tim_Weiman]

I disagree.  I want the greens fast and firm.  Super fast, super firm.

Same question I asked above:


would you soften green contours to achieve super fast greens?