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Kalen Braley

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Re: Changes to #10 at Riviera?
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2022, 01:59:10 PM »
John,

Those are some interesting suggestions, certainly agreed on removing the fairway bunker that prevents them driving/laying up to the most ideal spot.

P.S.  I wonder what George C would think of the current version of it.. and yes I know many poo poo the idea of trying to put themselves in the shoes of an ODG.  But I just can't imagine him thinking having a green that small and narrow, that more closely resembles a gym floor than an actual golf green was what he had in mind when making such a tiny target.  At inception that hole would have been running at maybe 4-5 on the stimp, but its sure seems absurd at 12+

David_Tepper

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Sam Kestin

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Re: Changes to #10 at Riviera?
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2022, 08:38:33 PM »
Sam,


It has been about thirty years since I played Riviera. I recall going for the green once and then playing a lay up shot on another visit. Don’t recall the layup being a problem.


Curious what may have changed since circa 1990.


Tim--


Frankly, very little has changed about the actual hole itself from a "design" perspective. The mowing patterns have changed some and the runoff area to the left of the front section of the green has been expanded some (there was a time rough came nearly all the way up to the edge), but by and large the bones of the hole pretty much remain in the same state as I found them when I first played the golf course in 1997. The tee has been slightly reconfigured, but that change really makes more of a difference for member play than it does for professional play. The rough has been grown out some in my favorite area to hit it by the cart path on the left between 10 and 11, but rare is the professional who ends up in that location.


This is a small thing, but they have shaved down the left edge of the fringe up against the left greenside bunker and so any shot that used to have a 50/50 chance of staying up is now a sure thing to trickle into that bunker. This makes more of a difference than it might appear as often times the laid up wedge shot from the fairway is tugged slightly for safety to the left half. So long as you didn't have any right to left spin on the ball, a straight wedge shot that landed a few paces left of the back hole locations would actually stay up top. That shot now nearly always ends up in the left bunker.


The biggest changes to the hole have come to the golfers who play it and the equipment that they use to do so. While I do agree green speeds are a piece of the equation, the greens were still reasonably fast ten years ago and we rarely heard much of a cry about the need to change the hole. This is conjecture on my part, but I do think that the inability to spin the ball around the greens quite as much as you used to before the groove changes (and a decade or two before that with higher-spin golf balls) has increased the frequency of the blow ups around the green where guys are going back and forth from one bunker to the next.


I know this will sound like the words of a cranky old man (which I shouldn't be at 36), but I do think that professional golfers are a little softer than they used to be. The hole is less than 300 yards and often plays under par. It is by no means a herculean feat to play the hole at even par or better over the course of the tournament. There seems to be some belief on the part of some professionals that simply because the hole is 300 yards that it must be a great birdie opportunity and is not permitted to be a challenging par. A drive long left of the green into the rough, a chip "laid up" onto the front half of the green and two putts is not that much to expect from a PGA TOUR professional irrespective of the day's hole location.


The trouble comes at ten when players try for just a little more and find a five or worse trying to seek out the three or better. It calls to mind when Gary Player had a conversation with Bobby Jones about the third hole over dinner at Augusta National. Player asked Jones how the heck is he supposed to birdie the third when the hole is located in the front left.


Jones responded "when the hole is located on the front left, you're not supposed to birdie the third hole."

V. Kmetz

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Re: Changes to #10 at Riviera?
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2022, 08:32:44 AM »
... The hole is less than 300 yards and often plays under par. It is by no means a herculean feat to play the hole at even par or better over the course of the tournament. There seems to be some belief on the part of some professionals that simply because the hole is 300 yards that it must be a great birdie opportunity and is not permitted to be a challenging par. A drive long left of the green into the rough, a chip "laid up" onto the front half of the green and two putts is not that much to expect from a PGA TOUR professional irrespective of the day's hole location.

The trouble comes at ten when players try for just a little more and find a five or worse trying to seek out the three or better. It calls to mind when Gary Player had a conversation with Bobby Jones about the third hole over dinner at Augusta National. Player asked Jones how the heck is he supposed to birdie the third when the hole is located in the front left.

Jones responded "when the hole is located on the front left, you're not supposed to birdie the third hole."


SK, everything you wrote was well taken, but especially this quoted part... This is the actual architectural impact/essence and chief reason it is a great hole, period... its assigned par be damned... it is a challenging, enticing, attractive, option filled 300 or so yards to golf the ball...a relative easy 4 for the pros, and just a bit less so for us...but take its modest length as a cue to expect or push for 3 or better and you're bound to be tested.


The other non-quoted portion made equally relevant points (mowing, fringe cut on the left bunker, spin) but as you imply that is different than that which would require "changes" in the op's title... indeed the design has not changed that much since the era when it received scant criticism, but it is dressed differently, and how we play such a hole (especially professionals) has changed discernably.


Upon my visit to this year's event, it "seemed to me"...I've only been on property twice... that the front left of the green was sharper, faster than I remember...like it was somehow "more sloped"...but that could be faulty.  I'm fairly sure more regular play is to the alternate green anyway; critics would do well to appreciate how much plainer and frankly easier the hole is when the hole finishes there...any perceived softening needs for the Thomas green complex might take away "edge" of the hole at that distance and destroy its value.


I also like that you got another great "shorter" hole, with edge for seekers of 3 or better,  in the conversation; the 3rd at ANGC is one of my favorites to behold, in part due to the tableaux of commentary that we have from Jones and Mackenzie about it.


Great post.
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

JESII

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Re: Changes to #10 at Riviera?
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2022, 09:19:41 AM »

SK, everything you wrote was well taken, but especially this quoted part... This is the actual architectural impact/essence and chief reason it is a great hole, period... its assigned par be damned... it is a challenging, enticing, attractive, option filled 300 or so yards to golf the ball...a relative easy 4 for the pros, and just a bit less so for us...but take its modest length as a cue to expect or push for 3 or better and you're bound to be tested.

Great post.




VK, regarding "...Par be damned...", do you think the hole would be viewed and played differently if they assigned in a Par 3?

Tommy Naccarato

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Re: Changes to #10 at Riviera?
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2022, 10:47:31 AM »
What they need to do is get the “MacKenzie” back in it!😂🤣


For those not subscribed to Geoff Shackelford’s Quadrilateral newsletter, you missed a great viewpoint on the hole and its history as well as a look at some insightful shot link data showing what has become of the hole. THE GOLFBALL GOES TOO FAR….

I did have great joy after getting three text messages from friends on Sunday of the recent tournament when Justin Thomas laid up short, put it on and walked away with birdie.  Two other players did the same that day.  The rest of the shots all looked like a veiled attempt to make the hole become the TPC of Scottsdale minus alcohol…. Blake is correct, the sand splash has built up over time as well as PGA Tour imposed set-up.


Marshall Dick is now the superintendent snd has been there for over two years now.  He was the former assistant there under Matt Morton before leaving the business for a bit, coming back at Bel-Air then getting rehired at the Riv.  Plenty capable and knows the place like the back of his hand!


 





V. Kmetz

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Re: Changes to #10 at Riviera?
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2022, 10:54:37 AM »

SK, everything you wrote was well taken, but especially this quoted part... This is the actual architectural impact/essence and chief reason it is a great hole, period... its assigned par be damned... it is a challenging, enticing, attractive, option filled 300 or so yards to golf the ball...a relative easy 4 for the pros, and just a bit less so for us...but take its modest length as a cue to expect or push for 3 or better and you're bound to be tested.


VK, regarding "...Par be damned...", do you think the hole would be viewed and played differently if they assigned in a Par 3?


I think frequent readers know that removing assigned hole par is a key to unlocking possible dimensions of GCA for me... I honestly don't know for the lot of us, or the pros, but when I've encountered one of these well appointed 240 - 320 yard holes, I play them for their features and my skills, knowing/feeling that a score over 4 is a defeat.  It's more about that precise developed bias in me, but I play almost 80% of holes thinking "4" is a stroke target, or "how 4 can win the match-play hole."... And we, if no one else, must remind ourselves that for most of us, the stuff about going for the green is moot and for most of us and probably from Thomas' mind, any worthy design amendments are regarding how does the green pin, and receive/putt, an 80 to 40 yard shot.
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -