Split Rock- Bronx, NY opinions

[mark chalfant]

 I played this one long ago-   McKinley was president-

and  I  liked the course.
 
Could someone refresh my memory about Split Rocks architectural merits including:

Routing, strategy,  greens  etc.

Thanks


ps     did  Van  Kleek  design this course  ?

[Mike_Sweeney]

I play in occasionally during the week (never a weekend), especially when I try to sneak in 9 holes. I was really surprised the first time I played it. There are some very nice holes and American Golf has it in decent shape compared to what you would expect. The greens have much more slope than you would expect for an old muni. They are pretty small for maintenance, I think it's sister course Pelham may have more interesting greens, but Split Rock is the better course.

Take out 10,000 trees, expand the greens and dig out the bunkers and you have a course that would still sit below Bethpage Red (which I think very highly of), but it has some real potential.

[GeoffreyC]

I have a real affection for Split Rock.

I played high school matches at the course in 1967-68.

Indeed it is a Van  Kleek design and I believe someone posted a VERY old photo of the course some time ago.

Mike- I can't for the life of me see how you think the greens at Pelham have more character.  Split ROck has some of the wildest old greens you can imagine.  Huge humps and bumps in many of them while others have severe tiers and drop offs into deep bunkers. They are a real joy.

There are cross bunkers and great variety with good use of the wetlands at the end of one nine (they keep switching the starting hole).

I took Brad and Corey Miller there at the end of last year I believe and the consensus was that if a group would be allowed to purchase the course to take it private and restore it then it would be one hell of a success.

One good thing about being an old city muni is that not much money was pumped into the place to change it. Its pretty much as built Only last year we saw a new pond and grading of a fairway which was a real shame.

I love that place and agree with Mike that it is at the same level as Bethpage Red (or could be with some care and removal of thousands of trees).

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mark,
Here is one of the images that Geoff mentioned, I think.

No one was able to guess the architect at the time, especially due to the scalloped edges on the bunker.
Another image of the course:

[Matt_Ward]

Mike / Geoff:

Split Rock is a fine course with a bit of tender loving care and a major action plan.

Even then -- It's not in the same league as Bethpage Red IMHO.

[GeoffreyC]

Jim

Thanks for posting those photos again.

If I didn't know better, I might think from those regular wavy scalloped edges on the bunker that Rees Jones got to Split Rock a ways back.   Make a modern photo into black and white and it becomes a classic  

[Neil Regan]

 The photo of the putters had the original caption:

   
Description : This golf course in Pelham Bay Park, New York City, was built with WPA funds under the supervision of the Department of Parks which will operate it. The construction work includes a new club house.[/size] Bobby Jones called the supervising engineer [/size] "one of the few really competent golf course architects available." [/color]

[Neil Regan]

I'm pretty sure that Robert Trent Jones [/i] used to be credited with work at Split Rock.
Does anyone know about this ?

[SB]

When I was with American Golf, we looked at a full restoration / renovation of the facility.  For those who are familiar with the course, there are a couple of major problems with the current course.

First is the trees.  They have become completely overgrown, not only changing the original strategy of the holes, but choking off circulation, affecting turf conditions.  However, the parks director at the time had a standing order that no tree could be cut down.

Second is drainage.  The soil (or rock) profile keeps standing water on a number of holes, also killing turf.  This was going to be an expensive fix.

Third is irrigation.

I say renovation/restoration because we looked back at the original hole by hole designs (NYC is very meticulous about records), and the existing course was not built to the original design.  I don't know much about Van Kleek/Stiles, but apparently a LOT of the work was done in the field.  The prevailing feeling was that some of the original (paper) design features could be incorporated, but that the as-built design was great, but we just needed better turf, some restored bunkers, and a chainsaw to fix things up.

Anyway, long story short, we presented our plans to the City, and they were very interested.  However, a number of factors, including state law, prevented them from being able to accept the proposal.

That said, the management contract is currently being bid.  Proposers have the option of investing heavily in a Split Rock renovation.  Knowing the cost/benefit, it may not make sense, and you may just see another band-aid.  I haven't heard how AGC or any of the other bidders looked at it.

[GeoffreyC]

SBusch

You seem to know a lot about Split Rock and I agree with your conclusions.  

Nearby, someone is spending at least 17 million dollars for the new Jack Nicklaus designed course for the city.  I would venture to guess that the quality of the course at Split Rock is far superior to what is currently being built.  Was the idea of using a few million $'s of that project's money to spruce up Split Rock and settle for a less expensive new city course nearby?

[Bruce Katona]

The City is focused on two issues at Pelham/Split Rock:
1. Renovation of the WPA-built Clubhouse
2. The potential for bringing the Split Rock course up to "tournament standards".

The clubhouse work will take a lot of effort, capital and time to renovate as the interior has WPA murals in the lobby must be restored and any addition/renovation will be reviewed by the City as if the structure is a "Landmarked" building.

The challenge to bringing the Split Rock course  up to "tournament standards" is irrigation water, or the lack thereof.  Currently, irrigation water is supplied by the City from a line and valve located outside the boundaries of the course.  In the event of a drought, the City can control the amount of water flowing to the course.  The option of on-site wells was explored, but the test results were not favorable and the well water irrigation plan abandoned.  In the RFP for the management of Pelham/Split Rock, the Parks Department was encouraging the use of additional lakes to capture stormwater runoff to suppliment existing irrigation water supplied by the City.

Without a consistant source of irrigation water, the capital improvement cost to upgrade the facility is risky.  A consistant source of irrigation water is the key to renovating the course.

[SB]

bkatona - you're right on, but I'd take the irrigation risk.  All of the courses in the NYC area are subject to drought restrictions, and the City is generally pretty reasonable to work with.

Geoffrey - the Ferry Point project is completely seperate from Split Rock.  Ferry Point was bid out a number of years ago, and is not subject to the same rate restrictions that Split Rock is.  Therefore, you can spend more money to get a better product.  It's more a case of building for the future.  The city gets it back in 50 years or so, and the high construction costs can be paid for with high greens fees.  Split rock is already a public golf course with low rates, and there's a responsibility on the part of the City to keep rates low.

[Bruce Katona]

SBusch: Many of the other City courses currently operated by American Golf had wells drilled for irrigation in the last couple of years, removing the drought risk.  In the RFP on Pelham/Split Rock, the City indicated it would entertain the idea of increasing rates at Split Rock in major improvements were made, but it was not a sure thing.

The uncertainty of raising rated to recoup substantial capital investment on a course upgrade adds a second risk to the equation.

[SB]

You're right.  I'm just saying that's a risk I'd be willing to take.