Courses that you changed your mind about after multiple plays...

[Jim Sherma]

In reference to the thread about whether or not you can evaluate a course in one play I have a slightly different take on it. What are examples of courses where you have had your initial opinion meaningfully changed after repeated plays? I certainly have a few cases where courses that at first I rated very highly then saw my love fade after more plays. While I am interested in these cases, I am almost more interested in the cases where your opinion of a course became much higher upon repeated plays.

[Tom_Doak]

For myself, most of the scores I've upgraded over the years of publishing The Confidential Guide were about context.  Many of the low scores were put in there based on a short visit in 1982-83, when I saw a place like Kilspindie on the heels of two months in St. Andrews, a week in Dornoch, and in between my first looks at Muirfield and North Berwick.  [Plus, I had a nasty, grey day to see it.]


That's the pitfall of seeing a bunch of courses in short order -- you are likely to underrate the ones you liked least, even if they deserved to be rated the lowest.

[MCirba]

Great topic, Jim...

The one that keeps creeping up a half point on each repeated play is Hidden Creek.   In retrospect, it was a case of expectations can be a b*tch, and I'd already played some of Bill and Ben's best efforts on really good land prior.   Consequently, my first time around was a bit of a letdown and I think I was in the 5 to 6 category after expecting something much higher.

What I've noticed on subsequent plays is how the greens and changing of hole locations really impact the optimum position for the approach, and the greens themselves are complex gems that may be too involved for the first-timer, which is a rare event.  The course also benefits from the fact that subtlety often wears well and usually moreso than visual pandemonium.


These days I'm in the 7.5 range and I really can't think of another course I played that's moved up or down more than a point upon repeated plays.

[Colin Christman]

Leatherstocking in Cooperstown, NY is a course that's grown on me over time. Multiple plays have left me gravitating toward a more running shot on #1 due to its reverse-redan-like green, more aggressive play on #4 because bunkering leaves no truly safe layup at a good yardage, using more of the slopes to the left of holes #9 and #10...


There's a lot of subtlety to it. I don't think I appreciated what a delightful course it is until I had a clearer picture of what shot I was being challenged to hit. At first glance, it's not always obvious from the fairway or tee what's going on. A little familiarity reveals some really cool holes that are more unique that I immediately realized.


Of course, I'm a sucker for a Devereux Emmet. Playing my earliest rounds at Cape Cod Country Club guaranteed that.

[Sean_A]

Mostly it's the unrated type courses which continue to impress. However, I keep going back to Porthcawl and it continues to rise in my estimation.

Ciao

[Brian Marion]

A lay up of sorts, Tobacco Road.


First time I played it, seemed like a tricked up destination course meant for a good time but not "serious" golf.


After a few more rounds, I started to get it and really appreciate Strantz' vision of perception of width and depth on that site.


Tot Hill. otoh, not my cup of tee and it's just up the road.

[A.G._Crockett]

I liked Lonnie Poole at NC State a lot the first time I played it, shortly after it opened.  I've liked the course less and less as time has gone by, and I especially don't like it as a university/public course because the routing makes walking difficult and unpleasant.

[mike_malone]

While I liked Applebrook when I first played it I like it a lot now. As I play it more I end up in different places so I encounter different challenges. It’s also an enjoyable walk.

[Brett Meyer]

I've found that my view of courses tends to be pretty consistent across visits but there are some exceptions. And they're often in the wrong direction; that I liked the course more the first time or first few times I played it than subsequently.

The best example that comes to mind is Greywalls. I first played it in 2011 and have played it now 7 times over 3 visits. For those who have played it, you know that it's one of the boldest courses that you'll see. The front nine is literally routed through and over grey granite walls and has some of the most unique and exciting, but also exacting holes that you'll see. The terrain on the back nine is a bit less dramatic but it's still quite difficult with some puzzling drives and difficult approaches to greens.

What increasingly gets me with Greywalls though is that the boldness of the a lot of the greens seems to try to compete with the boldness of the land and I think that it's just a bit too much overall. The first time I played it, I was amazed by the property and many of the holes themselves and I think it was just lost on me how severe some of the greens (except the first...that one bothered me from the beginning) were. I was just taking it all in, not caring about how I shot, and having fun.

But as I've played it more, the layering of designed severity on natural severity has come to bother me more. If you play a course enough, you start trying to play it well. And then the brutality of Greywalls hits you. If you're not having a good day with your irons, it's a nightmare because it has a few of the most severe convex greens that I've ever seen. Hitting the 1st and 14th greens from even 80 yards is difficult and if you don't, there's a decent chance that you'll end up ball-in-hand. 7, 8, and 13 are pretty nasty too.

To be fair, the course has several greens that collect rather than repel (3, 4, 6, 12) and some that are neutral in pitch (5, 10, 18). So it isn't all brutal. But I think that the course was always going to be difficult even with simple greens because DeVries (correctly) took what the land gave him, which was going to result in something that was naturally going to be difficult from tee to green. After multiple plays, this layering of difficulty-on-difficulty has come to bother me more and I don't like Greywalls as much as I did at first. I think that it would be better if several of the greens were toned down.

But it's still one of Michigan's best public courses and if you're in northern Michigan, it's worth a few hours out of your way to go see.

[Mike Wagner]

Bandon Trails. 9/10 times, the better the player, the more Trails goes up in their Bandon rankings over time.

[Carl Nichols]

Old Mac, Bandon Trails and Hidden Creek are the three that come to mind for me.

[Adam Lawrence]

Bandon Trails. 9/10 times, the better the player, the more Trails goes up in their Bandon rankings over time.

I'm a terrible golfer, but when I think about Bandon, it's always BT that I think about.

[Jim Sherma]

Brett - I agree that excess severity makes a course less fun through time. This can be due to architectural severity and/or maintenance severity. If a course for either reason results in places where many players end up in their pocket it certainly will become tiresome. Course played as a one off this is likely to be more forgiven since you do not see it as an endemic pattern.

[Dan Boerger]

I second Applebrook and would also add Teugega. True, some more tree work could be done at Teugega, but the routing became more impressive on successive plays.

[mike_malone]

I second Applebrook and would also add Teugega. True, some more tree work could be done at Teugega, but the routing became more impressive on successive plays.

I hear about Teugega but it fits that old Vermont expression “ you can’t get there from here”. 

[Tony_Muldoon]

Must have played Rye 8 times before I got it. Until then it was just am unusual format and tough, very tough.


Took a long time to have fun.


Hopefully next summer I'll get back. If ever was a course to play matchplay and when it goes wrong, pick up and move on.

[Dan Boerger]

Mike - Ha! But worth the drive, IMO -- make it a two day event and play the Yahnundasis and Seven Oaks in that same area. (I hear Yahnundasis considering some restoration work.)

[Ira Fishman]

Mid Pines. The first couple of times I played it, the course seemed cramped compared to Pine Needles and the green sitings not nearly as divinely chosen. Over the years and plays, I have come to appreciate the strategic greatness of many of the holes plus the cadence and flow. It is the US version of Swinley Forest.


Having said that, it really is difficult to top the brilliance of the green sitings at Pine Needles.


Ira

[Craig Moore]

Ill pick two Yooper courses most probably do not know about

Keweenaw Mountain Lodge
First time I played it I just paid and went to the first tee knowing nothing about it but was really curious in the design and construction methods during the round.  I found it very odd originally.  I Went inside post round and gathered the story behind the place and now I enjoy it even more every time I play it; plus it is almost no input maintenance and plays with the cyclical weather patterns that creates variety on its own every round. 

Iron River Country Club
Being a turf guy the first round I played there many years ago I just wanted to head down to the maintenance shop gather some tools and go to work lol Every round I have played since makes me realize more of its hidden potential as I experiment with shots and visualize all of the features hidden in shrunken mow lines, over grown bunkers, poorly planted trees and encroaching tree lines. Lots of lost golf on that L&M course waiting to be revealed that I discover more of with every round. 

This really is an interesting question and after 30 years of talking with golfers about their rounds I feel Most golfers (Just not on this site of elite course critics ) evaluate a course in two ways
[/size]1) They get sucked into course conditioning on their first play and say a place is great because its in awesome shape without really understanding what makes it a really good test of golf.  2) Ego runs their life and they hate a place because they scored high or love a place because they scored lowSo thoughts definitely can change with multiple plays.  I do find it fascinating and entertaining to read everyone’s thoughts on this site; Brett and I will definitely have an engaging conversation next time we are together for an event (which I hope is sooner rather than later as he is a joy to discuss golf with and articulates his thoughts very well); something must be said for Variety and working with the natural landscape. 

[Mark_Fine]

I use ski resorts a lot as a comparison to golf courses.  Lots of similarities.  The better the course the more study it requires. 

[Tim Gallant]

I always had the Old Course as a Doak 10, and always loved it, but had a few courses ahead of it in the pecking order, but that changed after a recent game, where we played in 65mph winds. I attach the photo below, because I know Mark P always thinks we exaggerate, but this was the case


So what changed during a round that should have been unplayable? It was still playable, and not just playable, but enjoyable. It was a new puzzle to solve, and one that I hadn't seen before on a course I've now probably played a dozen or so times. Three 4irons on the first to the back of the green set the tone. I always thought anyone taking the inside line at 16 was mad, but howling downwind, I aimed at the left greenside bunker and just about drove the green. It was a magical experience. There was so much width, that you could pick different lines, instead of one being dictated. North Berwick and a slew of courses were closed that day. The fact that the Old was open is a testament to what the course is. A chameleon, a shape shifter. Always a new puzzle.


For this reason, I'm now willing to relent and admit the Old is the best.

[Sean_A]

I always had the Old Course as a Doak 10, and always loved it, but had a few courses ahead of it in the pecking order, but that changed after a recent game, where we played in 65mph winds. I attach the photo below, because I know Mark P always thinks we exaggerate, but this was the case


So what changed during a round that should have been unplayable? It was still playable, and not just playable, but enjoyable. It was a new puzzle to solve, and one that I hadn't seen before on a course I've now probably played a dozen or so times. Three 4irons on the first to the back of the green set the tone. I always thought anyone taking the inside line at 16 was mad, but howling downwind, I aimed at the left greenside bunker and just about drove the green. It was a magical experience. There was so much width, that you could pick different lines, instead of one being dictated. North Berwick and a slew of courses were closed that day. The fact that the Old was open is a testament to what the course is. A chameleon, a shape shifter. Always a new puzzle.


For this reason, I'm now willing to relent and admit the Old is the best.

There is a lot to be said for a course being playable in wind...especially cross wind. The issue of width rises to the fore.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Courses that went up to some extent include North Berwick and Killermont while the course that first springs to mind that went down in estimation after a number of plays was Castle Stuart. With CS, once you get by the bling there is a fair bit of aimless slogging. That's not to say it doesn't have some really high points but you don't tend to notice the dull stuff until after a few plays.


Niall

[Brett Meyer]

I do find it fascinating and entertaining to read everyone’s thoughts on this site; Brett and I will definitely have an engaging conversation next time we are together for an event (which I hope is sooner rather than later as he is a joy to discuss golf with and articulates his thoughts very well); something must be said for Variety and working with the natural landscape. 

Hi Craig!

Yes we will...unfortunately I don't think I'll be up to Greywalls this summer. The one open slot at Cabot was the weekend of Summerball so I had to take that.

One course that I think is better each time I play it is the Heritage. But that's not because I'm seeing the same thing more positively...it's because you keep improving the Langford holes!

[Joel_Stewart]

Shadow Creek for me and not in a good way.  The first time is an overwhelming experience, the limo ride, the service, the locker room and then the beauty of the golf course knowing it was all man made and fake.


The second and third time I came to me senses and could see the flaws.  My last visit and after the renovation the course was boring and typified 1980s architecture.