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Jason Thurman

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Why is Arrowtown better than its neighbors?
« on: January 26, 2022, 09:52:15 PM »
Wifediesel and I have been watching old seasons of The Challenge. We're currently on Duel II. I've been trying to find the house on Google Maps. No dice. But in the process, I've realized there are a ton of golf courses near Arrowtown GC, even butting right up to it. A lot of them look like they might be fun, from satellite view.


Why is Arrowtown better?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

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Charles Lund

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Re: Why is Arrowtown better than its neighbors?
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2022, 11:51:41 PM »
Jack's Point is probably the best in the area.  I liked Millbrook and played it twice.  Bob Charles was involved in the original layout.  I opted not to try to Arrowtown when I was there in 2007 and 2008.  Wish I had played it.


Charles Lund

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Why is Arrowtown better than its neighbors?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2022, 05:47:04 AM »
Arrowtown is great because it doesn't try and over complicate things.


That and it's quirky eg: no bunkers

Thomas Dai

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Re: Why is Arrowtown better than its neighbors?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2022, 08:57:52 AM »
Paging Clyde.
:)

atb

Paul Rudovsky

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Re: Why is Arrowtown better than its neighbors?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2022, 09:05:40 AM »
1.  it is great fun
2.  it makes you think

Jason Thurman

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Re: Why is Arrowtown better than its neighbors?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2022, 12:02:25 PM »
Jack's Point is probably the best in the area.  I liked Millbrook and played it twice.  Bob Charles was involved in the original layout.  I opted not to try to Arrowtown when I was there in 2007 and 2008.  Wish I had played it.


Charles Lund


Chuck, I can't imagine you're a guy who's a real big Challenge fan, but both of those courses have come across my radar when I looked for the house that the Duel II cast stayed in. Millbrook abuts The Hills, which abuts Arrowtown. Looking at the three courses via satellite, it looks almost like a mini Pinehurst or 17 Mile Drive. Jack's Point down the road was the first course I browsed the perimeter of (the house I was trying to locate looks like it has OB stakes in bordering the backyard and every now and then there's a wide shot with golf in the background, which sent me down this stupid rabbit hole to begin with).


I know very little about any of these golf courses. I've never been to NZ and have only heard of Arrowtown from mentions around this site, and certainly haven't studied it. All I've known is that "It's bunkerless, affordable, and supposed to be pretty good!"


Are there unique terrain or other land characteristics that these courses near Queenstown share? Are the Arrowtown courses different in that regard than the rest of the Queenstown area? Is this an area worth traveling to for golf for more reasons than just Arrowtown itself?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Why is Arrowtown better than its neighbors?
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2022, 09:02:46 AM »
Millbrook abuts The Hills, which abuts Arrowtown. Looking at the three courses via satellite, it looks almost like a mini Pinehurst or 17 Mile Drive.


Probably the only time THAT comparison has ever been made.


The character of the three places could not be different.  Millbrook is a big resort and residential development where real estate was first priority.  The Hills is an opulent course built for a rich dude, which hosts tournaments and the occasional overseas visitor who is willing to fork over $$$$.  Both are on big, rolling land.


I’ve been on the Arrowtown member’s mailing list for a couple of years now, ever since they realized my book had sent more visitors their way.  To say it’s unpretentious is an understatement- none of the other clubs that email me are looking for members to participate in a “worker bee” next weekend to do projects around the clubhouse or clean up the rough on the front nine.  (Arrowtown does this every month or two. I don’t know how many full time employees they have, but it might not reach double digits.)


The golf course is short, rugged, and highly quirky.  It doesn’t need bunkers because there are rock outcrops in play on several holes, and if you don’t want to chance a very bad bounce, you have to treat them with respect.  The terrain is full of 5- to 15-foot ridges and valleys so there is lots of drama and some blindness if you get out of position.  It reminds me of no other course, although you’d be more likely to think of the Scottish highlands than New Zealand if dropped in blindfolded.


Queens town is a great place and there is a variety of golf there now, but all the other places are selling it hard.  Arrowtown is authentic.

jeffwarne

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Re: Why is Arrowtown better than its neighbors?
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2022, 10:02:29 AM »
Millbrook abuts The Hills, which abuts Arrowtown. Looking at the three courses via satellite, it looks almost like a mini Pinehurst or 17 Mile Drive.

I’ve been on the Arrowtown member’s mailing list for a couple of years now, ever since they realized my book had sent more visitors their way.  To say it’s unpretentious is an understatement- none of the other clubs that email me are looking for members to participate in a “worker bee” next weekend to do projects around the clubhouse or clean up the rough on the front nine.  (Arrowtown does this every month or two. I don’t know how many full time employees they have, but it might not reach double digits.)


The golf course is short, rugged, and highly quirky.  It doesn’t need bunkers because there are rock outcrops in play on several holes, and if you don’t want to chance a very bad bounce, you have to treat them with respect.  The terrain is full of 5- to 15-foot ridges and valleys so there is lots of drama and some blindness if you get out of position.  It reminds me of no other course, although you’d be more likely to think of the Scottish highlands than New Zealand if dropped in blindfolded.


Queens town is a great place and there is a variety of golf there now, but all the other places are selling it hard.  Arrowtown is authentic.


This.
In fact I didn't even make time for the other two, choosing instead to go back to Arrowtown.


It was Brora,Durness and Boat of Garten meeting Soule Park and Goat Hill (NY) for me.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Charles Lund

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Arrowtown better than its neighbors?
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2022, 01:06:46 PM »
I did a few trips that included New Zealand and Australia between 2007 and 2009. It was clear in the beginning that Australia had not only much better courses, but an abundance of accessible and affordable courses.


I think I skipped Arrowtown on two trips when I was told about poor conditioning.  Millbrook had hosted pro tournaments in bygone eras.  Queenstown Golf Club (aka Kelvin Heights) was poorly maintained.  I think I played Jack's Point in the month it opened.  It had an open and expansive quailty at the time, significant elevation changes, and aesthetically appealing lakeside holes. 


I've heard Arrowtown mentioned in many conversations with Aussies ahout golf in New Zealand, probably due to the quirky character.


The South Island had a limited number of interesting golf courses.  I played about three around Otago and Invercargill and about three around Christchurch. 


I never visited Wellington.


Kauri Cliffs and Cape Kidnappers were the main golf attractions back then.  I probably played close to 20 or 25 courses there.


The appeal for me was the beauty of the place, open space, and the kiwi culture.  I'd liken some areas to the Pacific Northwest or British Columbia.  A lot of driving is required, although regional flights were available and cut out some long drives.  The South Island has about 3/4 of the land mass and  probably less than 1/4 of the population.  Queenstown is a mecca for adrenaline type experiences like bungie jumping.


I've spent two and a half months in New Zealand and close to 15 months in Australia.  I probably would not have gone to Australia but it made sense as a side trip from New Zealand, so there is a bit of of serendipity for me.


Charles Lund
« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 03:15:55 PM by Charles Lund »

David_Elvins

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Re: Why is Arrowtown better than its neighbors?
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2022, 03:29:43 PM »
Wifediesel and I have been watching old seasons of The Challenge. We're currently on Duel II. I've been trying to find the house on Google Maps. No dice. But in the process, I've realized there are a ton of golf courses near Arrowtown GC, even butting right up to it. A lot of them look like they might be fun, from satellite view.


Why is Arrowtown better?


You might be reading google maps wrong.  There are only 2 courses near arrowtown and none that abut it   the hills and millbrook are standard high end and low end resort courses, respectively.


Arrowtown is a minimalist low budget members course which, on the difficult terrain gives it some cool originality and quirk. 
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Daryl David

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Jeff Schley

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Re: Why is Arrowtown better than its neighbors?
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2022, 02:26:25 PM »
For those who haven't been tell us the prices for international visitors at each venue. I know Hills and Jacks Point are pricey.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Charles Lund

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Arrowtown better than its neighbors?
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2022, 02:27:21 PM »
Here's a link to Jack's Point photos:


https://www.jackspoint.com/golf-photos


Charles Lund

Jeff Schley

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Re: Why is Arrowtown better than its neighbors?
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2022, 02:40:06 PM »
Wow Charles beautiful course. What is the slope of the front half of the green in the 3rd photo I think? Can't get it pasted here. Looks very severe.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Arrowtown better than its neighbors?
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2022, 03:03:29 PM »
For those who haven't been tell us the prices for international visitors at each venue. I know Hills and Jacks Point are pricey.


My last visit in 2020 Jacks Point was around $160 USD. The Hills was $650 USD and Millbrook was $150 USD. Arrowtown is now $95 USD. They have increased a bit the last few years. Call it the Confidential Guide effect.  ;D

David_Elvins

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Re: Why is Arrowtown better than its neighbors?
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2022, 04:28:59 PM »
For those who haven't been tell us the prices for international visitors at each venue. I know Hills and Jacks Point are pricey.


My last visit in 2020 Jacks Point was around $160 USD. The Hills was $650 USD and Millbrook was $150 USD. Arrowtown is now $95 USD. They have increased a bit the last few years. Call it the Confidential Guide effect.  ;D


Wow, 10 years ago membership at Arrowtown was about NZ$300. Over $800 now. Still good value!


One good feature of Jacks Point and Arrowtown is that they have a replay rate that is valid for 10 days. More courses should look at doing that imo.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2022, 04:31:53 PM by David_Elvins »
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MKrohn

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Re: Why is Arrowtown better than its neighbors?
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2022, 06:25:34 PM »
For those who haven't been tell us the prices for international visitors at each venue. I know Hills and Jacks Point are pricey.


As Australians, we get annoyed being considered intl visitors in NZ and paying the higher freight. Many years ago you could join a country NZ club for next to nothing and hence avail yourself of the local rates. Last time Jacinda let me in it didn't work, you had to have a drivers license, be able to pull off the icksint and name a dozen All Blacks.


Needs fact checking but I heard 12-18 months ago The Hills was up near AUD$2000, USD$1400. Before TD got there, I'm sure I only paid NZ$25 to play Arrowtown.


Its the great golf contrast all within a couple of kms, a fun cheap country course and a rich mans private estate. Bit like wine, do you really get the extra value out of the $1500 bottle. I don't.

Charles Lund

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Re: Why is Arrowtown better than its neighbors?
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2022, 07:10:20 PM »
I think I played it the first month it opened, back in December of 2008.  I have vague but generally positive memories of the course.  I recall thinking of getting on it as a great opportunity and luck with timing.  Around the time, I recall being told Arrowtown was not well maintained.  Millbrook was in nice shape.  It had some decent holes.  At the time, Kauri Cliffs and Cape Kidnappers set a high bar.


I don't recall the third green. 



I might have photos of Jack's Point archived back home. 


I saw a lot of the country and played a lot of courses, including Oreti Sands way down on the South Island and the northernmost course on the North Island.  Most little towns had golf courses.  I probably played 20 to 25 scattered around the country.


"Wow Charles beautiful course. What is the slope of the front half of the green in the 3rd photo I think? Can't get it pasted here. Looks very severe."


Charles Lund


Michael Goldstein

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Re: Why is Arrowtown better than its neighbors?
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2022, 05:59:10 PM »
Given I'm the closest to this I should pipe up. Queenstown has had a tough time the last two years with our very strict border rules - which should hopefully subside so that we can welcome visitors next kiwi summer.

Arrowtown is as Tom has described it. Super cool place. My personal favourite generally aligning with my values (although sometimes rather soft from overwatering). The high season visitor rate is NZD$140 which is US$93. For locals it is a very affordable membership with cheap members guest fees + members have all kinds of rights to play other courses in the region.

The Hills is indeed on big rolling land. The original routing is a bit clunky but there's some cool stuff there. Darius Oliver has built a 9 hole par three course called The Farm which is bunkerless and oodles of fun.  For most people on this site, rolling around the Farm in the evening with 2-3 clubs would be a hard experience that is hard to beat in NZ. The team at the Hills have also made various design changes to the main course working alongside Darius. These include widening fairways, removing bunkers and providing more options from the tee. With the climate (and a prior commitment to annually hosting the NZ Open) there have been limits on the amount of change that can be done. Some holes play significantly differently like 9, 15 and 18 with large bunkers removed from the fairways. Whilst The Hills has hosted many tournaments it is no longer the host of the New Zealand Open. I've spent a lot of time at The Hills over the last 10 years but at this time it is no longer the host or co-host of this event.  The Hills were fortunate to have an excellent GM/Superintendent who made huge improvements to the golf: building The Farm, changing mowing lines, minor strategic changes and crucially putting the members through a fair amount of short term pain to improve the turf quality which is now world class.  He is now involved in a new project in the North Island. Like many courses discussed on here The Hills is private (which is an unusual phenomenon in New Zealand). Before the pandemic they allowed very limited guest play for NZD$1,000 which included F&B. I'm unsure what their plan is moving forward with regard to guest play but like most private clubs it's a peripheral part of their business model.

Millbrook Resort was the original 'golf resort' in Queenstown. Originally it had an 18 hole course designed by Sir Bob Charles. Now it has two 18 hole courses - the final 9 holes opened to visitor play January 2022. The new course is designed by Greg Turner & Scott Macpherson and is called the Coronet course. Over the years Turner & Macpherson also made various changes to the original course  (including 4 new holes). Millbrook Resort is a very successful golf lifestyle resort & I can't think of a better place to stay when visiting the area. They are now the hosts of the New Zealand Open with the pro-am style event (format is like the AT&T) played across both courses. Unfortunately the event has been cancelled the last 2 years (this week the 2022 event was cancelled). The resort is at it's finest during the tournament where thousands of people stay across the 400+ residences & in the hotel - many of the amateur players are international, a number are from Japan (Millbrook Resort is owned by a Japanese family) and a few are playing this week in Monterey. Architecturally there are always limitations within the residential constraints but the Coronet course with a continuity of style features width, strategic options (particularly on the par fives which are excellent) and plenty of fun shots. I suspect as more people see this course it will be considered amongst the top 8-12 courses across the overall NZ golf offering. High season non guest visitor rates are between $210 (USD$140) and $260 (USD$172) with various discounts for hotel guests and replay rates.

Jack's Point is almost certainly the most stunning golf course in the district. It has been designed by John Darby. Some commentators rate it extremely highly and it has some incredible moments both architecturally & visually. This is supported by absolutely impeccable conditioning with firm tight fairways that merge into natural areas. I have difficulty with the routing and a few other things but the reality is that for the average punter riding a golf cart who isn't into architecture this is the number 1 course to recommend in the area (comfortably above Arrowtown). Even most architecture snobs would have a great time out.  Fees are NZD$195 (USD$130) and a replay rate of $95 (USD$65).
 
There is a private course above Arrowtown owned by Russell Coutts. It's got 16 greens, shared fairways and is very very cool. You chart your own path around the property to greens that have a lot more undulation & interest than others in the district.  Probably shouldn't mention it on here as it's essentially his backyard!


And finally there is a new course that has been consented immediately next to The Hills and across the road from Arrowtown. It's called Hogan's Gully. The landforms are a mixture between The Hills and Arrowtown. I've walked the routing which has some stunning moments & it will definitely be one of the most exciting golf courses to come online in New Zealand over the next few years.


Finally, Queenstown (and surrounds) is about a lot more than golf. I'm biased as I now live down here in the South amongst the mountains, the lakes and the big skies and am very lucky to call this special corner of the world home.

 
@Pure_Golf