Blind P4 and P5

[Kevin Pallier]

I did a thread a few years ago on Blind P3s - I'm now keen to explore Blind P4s & 5s with a focus on the 2nd shot & 3rd shot into the greens


There's many a hole with a blind tee shot - what "great" holes are out there have a blind 2nd shot & 3rd shot into them?

P4
I'm thinking off the top of my head
13th Rye
17th Prestwick (Alps)
3rd NGLA

P5
?

How many great one's have been built in the last 50 years or so?


 

[Donnie Beck]

4th at Fishers Island

[Kevin Pallier]

Donnie


Indeed - into a beautiful punchbowl green - how could I forget? 

[MCirba]

I enjoy holes where you have to take on a risky line on your drive to be able to see the green/flag on your approach.   The 13th at The Old Course may be the template for this type of hole but the 8th at Prairie Club Dunes course is the best I've seen built in recent days.

[Rob Marshall]

4th at Lahinch

[Thomas Dai]

The 13th at Cruden Bay and the 14th at Carnoustie would both be examples of par-5’s with blind approach shots into the greens.
Atb

[David_Tepper]

#8 at ANGC may or may not be a great P5 (probably not ) but the 2nd shot to the green is a blind one.

[George Smiltins]

11th at Mayfield CC in Cleveland (and blind P4 drives on 2,9, 15)


16th at Canterbury is certainly blind for good players trying to reach in 2 and can be on the 3rd shot with a slightly mishit layup.

[Jordan Standefer]

16th at Old Macdonald

[David Jones]

Perfection at North Berwick fits the bill. Point Garry (in) too, kind of.

[Mark Mammel]

Number 16 Royal Dornoch
Number 6 Pebble (for most of us!)Numbers 9, 12 White Bear Yacht ClubNumber 9 Old Course

[Joe Hellrung]

I may be remembering incorrectly, but I believe the punchbowl green on one of the par 5's on the black course at streamsong is a totally blind 3rd shot.  Fun hole! 

[James Bennett]

Kevin


St Andrews Beach #1,Par 5, invariably blind third for me every time.

[Jim_Coleman]

   It’s sort of a Pete Dye template, no? The short par 4 with a hill in front of the green. The 14th at La Romana CC is one. Isn’t #5 at Long Cove one? I’m pretty sure there are quite a few.
   Another I remember from 50 years ago is #10 at Kernwood in Salem, Mass. - a Ross.

[Dan_Callahan]

The second shot at Yale's 3rd hole is blind, as is the second on NGLA's 16th hole.

[Tim Martin]

The second shot at Yale's 3rd hole is blind, as is the second on NGLA's 16th hole.

Yale’s Alps Hole #12 approach is also blind. Wannamoisett 10 is a favorite.

[Adam G]

Gil Hanse has some interesting uses of blind shots on par 4s and 5s he has built in recent years. In particular, he often uses partial blindness for strategy.
Streamsong Black's punchbowl may be most well known, but I will take two holes at Boston Golf Club are good examples. The par 4 5th is a short 300 yard uphill par 4 around a rock quarry on the right to a green that is long and narrow. If you hit it left away from the quarry, you have an awkward angle into a shallow green with a falloff on one side and a deep bunker on the other. If you hit right towards the quarry, you have the better angle down the length of the green but your view of the green is obscured by mounding. The par 5 15th is a par 5 that plays uphill and across a great hazard that cuts diagonally across the hole and up the left side to a green set in an amphitheater-like hollow. If you go for the green in two it is blind (although you can often see the staircase leading from the green to the next tee). If you lay up, the fairway is bisected by a ridge. If you play towards the hazard on the left you get a view of the green. If you play away, the ridge makes approaches to a very difficult green with many rolls and sections blind. The approach to the 9th at BGC is also largely blind and blocked by a "haha wall."
In Massachusetts there are a number of other blind approaches into punchbowls. I think 16 Wianno and 17 Cape Arundel fall into this category if I'm not mistaken. Seems like a sort of old school thing to do and Ross and others working in Mass did it quite a bit.

[Dan_Callahan]

For a modern par 5, the third shot at Tobacco Road's 13th is blind.

[James Boon]

There are plenty of par 4 examples, but par 5s less so.


One that does come to mind is the 3rd at County Louth (Baltray). Its about 530 yards, and the approach to the green is blind, so whether you are trying for the green in two shots or have laid up and its your third shot, its likely to be a blind approach. However its a narrow green with a big run off area of fairway to the left falling away that can leave you with probably a 20 to 30 yard approach from way left and below the green if you miss left.


So if you are trying for the green in two, you cant quite tell where the green or flag are other than the marker post on the ridge in front of the green that makes it blind, and so its very easy to miss left and have a tricky 3rd. However if you lay up just short of the ridge you can walk up and have a check of the line, making for a much easier approach. Or that's how I remember it from my couple of plays anyway. A great combination of the excitement of cresting the hill to see how the ball has finished and the risk reward of going for it in two while its blind.


Another good example would be the 3rd at Royal Cinque Ports (Deal) but I suspect that is better known to many of the group here.


Cheers,


James

[Phil Burr]

Bass River Golf Club, a Donald Ross layout on Cape Cod, has a short (350-ish) par four dogleg left that is dead flat but with a green that is sunken about 3-4 feet below of the level of the fairway.  You can see the top of the flag but can't really tell where the hole is cut.  The downhill slope begins about five yards short of the green so I always found the right shot to be a punched nine-iron that landed on the flats with enough forward momentum to bounce onto the downslope and hence roll gently onto the green.  I saw many second shots land on the downslope and rocket over the back into thick woods.  Looking at the scorecard online, it appears this is now the 14th hole.  It was #2 when I used to play it.

[Richard Fisher]

Three more classic UK examples would be


The 3rd at Burnham - splendidly old-fashioned blind second to a punchbowl green
The 14th at Brancaster
The 15th at Harlech
Two of the best and most challenging half-par holes in the UK, with blind or at best semi-blind seconds. Often forgotten is the 12th at Brancaster, again with a blind second to a 'raised bowl' green.
The Sea Hole at Rye has already been mentioned!

[Duncan Cheslett]

There are a couple of extreme examples at Silloth on Solway.


The uphill approach over a ridge to a dell green on the wonderful par 4 7th is completely blind even for the short hitter who has laid up to 50 yards.


The 14th is rather overshadowed by the all world 13th which precedes it, but it is a fine hole in its own right. A reachable par 5 for even average hitters, the second shot is directly over a huge dune complex to an expansive green. Wait for the bell!

[Richard Fisher]

The 2nd at Huntercombe ('one of the best bunkerless holes in the world - R Morrissett) has a distinctly blind second shot for most people, unless the flag is at the very far left of the green and the drive is likewise hit long and left.

[Sean_A]

Pennard's 7th is a favourite. Although the days more people can reach the green from the tee.

Ciao

[Michael Felton]

How blind does a green need to be to count? There are different levels of it. If it's just can you see the bottom of the flagstick, then in the par 5 bucket, I'd pose 16 at Walton Heath Old, 4 and 13 at Bethpage Black and the 2nd hole at Hindhead. If it's need a marker pole behind the green to see where you're going then it's harder to come up with those. Similarly for par 4s, 5 and 15 at Bethpage fit the bill. 1 on Red.


On 5 at RSG anything other than a perfect tee shot is blind. 15 at RCP is basically blind.