How the wind can make a really good hole or course not nearly as good.

[Jerry Kluger]

Another thread was discussing which is the best Redan hole and to me the Redan at North Berwick is a much better hole downwind versus into the wind.  In fact, I think the whole course is better when the front holes are into the wind and those on the back are downwind.  I remember Tom Doak mentioning how important the prevailing wind was in designing Old Macdonald and specifically with the summer winds in mind and how some holes would not play as designed if the wind was blowing in the opposite direction from the prevailing winds. 

[Anthony Gray]

 This is an interesting question   


 The third at Castle Stuart. It’s a great hole but with trouble all around the green the wind can wreck havoc. The low runner with the wind behind can chase into the water. Or a challenge to drive the green can result the same.

[Tom_Doak]

Cape Wickham is another case study of this phenomenon.  There are a significant % of days where some of the holes are basically unplayable.  Do we assume ideal conditions when we are rating a course, even when ideal conditions are not that common?


It's actually something that would be solved just on the basis of letting panelists rate the course on the day they played it.  If the holes are too difficult 30% of the time, the rating numbers would reflect just that.  Telling people to assume optimal conditions is less honest.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom's answer here would've fit very well in a thread I started a while back, ie should a course that's great 50% of the time be considered a great course. By 'fit very well' I mean it would've been an 'answer' that led to a dozen more questions and some great discussion!

[Tom_Doak]

Tom's answer here would've fit very well in a thread I started a while back, ie should a course that's great 50% of the time be considered a great course. By 'fit very well' I mean it would've been an 'answer' that led to a dozen more questions and some great discussion!

I avoided that discussion because it wasn’t clear whether we were supposed to factor in that Crystal Downs isn’t that great with an inch of slushy snow on top.

[Peter Pallotta]

Yes, someone early on in that thread noted that Canadian courses were covered in snow half the year, but I couldn't decide if the comment was silly (since obviously 50% of the time meant 'playable time') or instead was the key insight/best answer (i.e., since no course plays the same all season long, greatness can't be measured in terms of 'uniformity of play') 

[Ira Fishman]

I played Old Head on a fairly calm day. I would imagine that on a windy day not only would it be unplayable, it would be dangerous to try.


Ira

[Thomas Dai]

Perhaps it's because a hole/course can still be played in unusual or variable strength winds that makes a great hole/course a great hole/course?
atb

[jeffwarne]

  Do we assume ideal conditions when we are rating a course, even when ideal conditions are not that common?


It's actually something that would be solved just on the basis of letting panelists rate the course on the day they played it.  If the holes are too difficult 30% of the time, the rating numbers would reflect just that.  Telling people to assume optimal conditions is less honest.

There are several courses that assume exactly that, and only allow panelists when the course is in ideal condition and showing its best.

[Mark Pearce]

7th at Barnbougle Dunes is a wonderful short par 3 into the wind.  Downwind I'm not sure how it can be played.  Could say the same about 10 at Royal Dornoch, particularly with a front pin.

[Jeff Schley]

I dont love playing in very high wind, but I enjoy the challenge for sure.  Windiest courses I recall playing which were above average in calm conditions

• Old PGA of Southern California courses in Beaumont. Renamed something else now. Surprisingly had good ground options which made it fun, the holes it didn't really sucked.    anything in Beaumont is a wind tunnel and u see  windmills near palm springs for a reason.
• TOC - Mark Chaplin can attest to how windy that day was 40-50 mph winds.  While it was challenging certainly I wanted to play it in somewhat more playable conditions.  At least fairway width was there and appreciated.
• Amana Colonies golf course in Iowa.  It was too narrow without enough open green to play in the wind I played in.  A shame because it is a nice course otherwise imo. 

[Tom_Doak]

7th at Barnbougle Dunes is a wonderful short par 3 into the wind.  Downwind I'm not sure how it can be played.  Could say the same about 10 at Royal Dornoch, particularly with a front pin.

That’s why we built all that fairway to the right on 7 at Barnbougle.


Many famous par-3 holes fall apart in a strong tailwind.  I have played 17th at Sand Hills when there was pretty much nothing to do but hit it in a bunker, because you couldn’t hold the green.

[Thomas Dai]

Options, preferably the more the better.
And working out the optimum way to tackle the puzzle ahead and then executing a way to equal or best it.
There’s nothing wrong with playing a hole in an unconventional way should the circumstances require it, like say deliberately laying up, or deliberately hitting over the back or to one side or another of a green, to achieve a pleasing score and sometimes a bogey or a nett bogey or worse isn’t really a bad score.
Atb

[Sean_A]

7th at Barnbougle Dunes is a wonderful short par 3 into the wind.  Downwind I'm not sure how it can be played.  Could say the same about 10 at Royal Dornoch, particularly with a front pin.

The 10th isn't anything special into the wind. It certainly doesn't balance the silliness of the hole downwind.

I understand variety is necessary. But North Berwick's 13 and 17 lose their charm into any sort of wind unless you can hit the ball a fair distance.

Ciao

[Anthony Gray]

 Played the Eden hole in the wind and the green was unputtable. Watched a scratch golfer pick up.

[Mark_Fine]

Clearly conditions can dramatically change a golf hole/course (at least how it is played).  But is #7 at Pebble Beach a terrible hole when the wind is blowing 40mph and what is often a flip sand wedge is near impossible to hit the green using any club?  Imagine playing #16 at Cypress in that kind of wind?  I have done both but it didn’t diminish the quality of either hole for me one bit.  But it sure made them play differently and more challenging. 


I love to play true links courses in the wind and even some rain. To me they are as much a test of character as a test of golf.  Playing a links course with no wind is totally different then when the wind is howling.  But that is golf and the elements provide a different test and you either embrace it or wait for another day.  I don’t hold the golf course or the architect accountable for the weather.  There are other things more in their control (even how they use the offsite backdrops and vistas) that are more important to me to hold them accountable for in an overall assessment.  The wind will always be a variable (even a prevailing wind) and you just deal with it. Same with the air temperature and rain and to some extend turf conditions (turf is usually more the super than the architect in most cases). [size=78%] [/size]

[Sean_A]

Clearly conditions can dramatically change a golf hole/course (at least how it is played).  But is #7 at Pebble Beach a terrible hole when the wind is blowing 40mph and what is often a flip sand wedge is near impossible to hit the green using any club?  Imagine playing #16 at Cypress in that kind of wind?  I have done both but it didn’t diminish the quality of either hole for me one bit.  But it sure made them play differently and more challenging. 


I love to play true links courses in the wind and even some rain. To me they are as much a test of character as a test of golf.  Playing a links course with no wind is totally different then when the wind is howling.  But that is golf and the elements provide a different test and you either embrace it or wait for another day.  I don’t hold the golf course or the architect accountable for the weather.  There are other things more in their control (even how they use the offsite backdrops and vistas) that are more important to me to hold them accountable for in an overall assessment.  The wind will always be a variable (even a prevailing wind) and you just deal with it. Same with the air temperature and rain and to some extend turf conditions (turf is usually more the super than the architect in most cases).

40mph wind? Judging a hole in those conditions is silly.

Ciao

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

When I think of a course where the wind doesn't really help you at all, Narin & Portnoo (I'm thinking of the old 6000 yds version) always comes to mind. Having the wind with you on the front 7-8 holes is of no help at all. The elevated greens are so difficult to hold. Holes such as the 2nd, 3rd and 4th only get tougher and that short par 3 (hole no. 7 now?) and the following short par four at the end of the course become so tricky. When you reach the far end, you then turn back into the wind  , and you know you have no chance of putting a decent score together. It was bad enough with two par 5s on the back nine, but then they added another. 


I've played it in some brutal conditions where the sand was blowing in from the beach, and it's was a beast. I can't imagine how tough it became when they lengthened it to just under 7000 yards.

[Mark_Fine]

Sean,
15-25 mph with gusts much higher is not uncommon at all in Monterrey along the water.  That alone is enough to make those holes brutal.  And many times with the wind a marine layer rolls in and you can only see 100 yards in front of you.  All elements outside of the architect’s control and can dramatically change a hole (that particular day).  Do you downgrade the hole?


I took a friend one time to Cypress and he couldn’t see the 16th green from the tee.  We just pointed him in the right direction. Said it was the greatest hole he ever played and never saw     The marine layer was in for a whole week.    It is not the most beautiful golf course when you can’t see it. 


I looked at the weather for Bandon after New Years and it is in the 40’s with 25-35 mph winds and gusts higher with some rain.  Do you bag your trip, diss the golf courses because of the weather or just play?  The answer to the thread’s question is most definitely the wind can make a golf hole play dramatically differently but I don’t think it should determine the quality of the golf hole/course other than for that day.  And this is another reason why it takes more than one round to properly evaluate and assess a golf course especially the best ones. 


How do you rate a course if it was just aerated or there was an inch of rain the night before or it was just over seeded,…. All these things impact how a hole will play on any given day and how great it is just like the wind.  You ideally need to factor all kinds of conditions in your overall assessment of the quality of a golf hole. 

[Sean_A]

Sean,
15-25 mph with gusts much higher is not uncommon at all in Monterrey along the water.  That alone is enough to make those holes brutal.  And many times with the wind a marine layer rolls in and you can only see 100 yards in front of you.  All elements outside of the architect’s control and can dramatically change a hole (that particular day).  Do you downgrade the hole?


I took a friend one time to Cypress and he couldn’t see the 16th green from the tee.  We just pointed him in the right direction. Said it was the greatest hole he ever played and never saw     The marine layer was in for a whole week.    It is not the most beautiful golf course when you can’t see it. 


I looked at the weather for Bandon after New Years and it is in the 40’s with 25-35 mph winds and gusts higher with some rain.  Do you bag your trip, diss the golf courses because of the weather or just play?  The answer to the thread’s question is most definitely the wind can make a golf hole play dramatically differently but I don’t think it should determine the quality of the golf hole/course other than for that day.  And this is another reason why it takes more than one round to properly evaluate and assess a golf course especially the best ones. 


How do you rate a course if it was just aerated or there was an inch of rain the night before or it was just over seeded,…. All these things impact how a hole will play on any given day and how great it is just like the wind.  You ideally need to factor all kinds of conditions in your overall assessment of the quality of a golf hole.

40mph...no. You are playing for a laugh. I wouldn't make any real judgement on a hole in that sort of wind. 40mph is miles beyond any sort of average wind speed.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Perhaps it's because a hole/course can still be played in unusual or variable strength winds that makes a great hole/course a great hole/course?
atb

This is the best answer yet.

[Mark Pearce]

Clearly conditions can dramatically change a golf hole/course (at least how it is played).  But is #7 at Pebble Beach a terrible hole when the wind is blowing 40mph and what is often a flip sand wedge is near impossible to hit the green using any club?  Imagine playing #16 at Cypress in that kind of wind?  I have done both but it didn’t diminish the quality of either hole for me one bit.  But it sure made them play differently and more challenging. 


I love to play true links courses in the wind and even some rain. To me they are as much a test of character as a test of golf.  Playing a links course with no wind is totally different then when the wind is howling.  But that is golf and the elements provide a different test and you either embrace it or wait for another day.  I don’t hold the golf course or the architect accountable for the weather.  There are other things more in their control (even how they use the offsite backdrops and vistas) that are more important to me to hold them accountable for in an overall assessment.  The wind will always be a variable (even a prevailing wind) and you just deal with it. Same with the air temperature and rain and to some extend turf conditions (turf is usually more the super than the architect in most cases).

40mph wind? Judging a hole in those conditions is silly.

Ciao

Indeed.  And without wanting to rake over old ground, I doubt anyone here has actually played golf in 40mph winds.  It's getting tricky to stand up at that speed.

[Ben Stephens]

7th at Barnbougle Dunes is a wonderful short par 3 into the wind.  Downwind I'm not sure how it can be played.  Could say the same about 10 at Royal Dornoch, particularly with a front pin.

Umm what about the 9th at Silloth - I remember playing with you and you played a fairway wood during BUDA

[Thomas Dai]

Worth noting that wind speed at ground level is usually a lot less than at different heights up in the air.
As to someone gauging a certain wind speed when standing on a golf course, I’m unconvinced that folks can judge this with any accuracy, at least not without help from equipment/gadgets. Plus there’s temperature, humidity and a few other things to consider as well.
Nah wind, nah golf.
Atb


PS - in one of Dave Pelz books he uses a section of chain link to measure wind speed. The section of chain is hung vertically and moves further away from the vertical as the wind speed increases.

[Mark_Fine]

When the ball is oscillating on the green I know it is blowing pretty hard   


Maybe the point is when the wind is up not all golfers can deal with it.  We were playing Portrush one time in a gale and one of my playing partners wanted to walk in.  It was just too hard for him. 


I was at Whistling Straits one time and it was really blowing.  I got paired with a young college player who was hitting these towering shots next to me on the range.  I spent the time hitting all knock down shots.  The wind was wicked.  He didn’t even break 80.  Some players don’t like the elements or have the game for it.  That is why not everyone likes The Open.  I love when they get real wind and weather during the tournament but it doesn’t happen too often when they play it in the summer.