[jeffwarne]

I would be really interested to hear some thoughts on why par does or does not matter to people.


I sit on the fence in this debate and can appreciate both sides ... some days I truly believe it doesn't matter and other days I think it does have a some sort of purpose.


Any thoughts?

For gambling

For gambling "junk"
For Stableford
For drama-many 1/2 par holes create drama(birdies and bogies) a la Augusta,
Otherwise not really




OT-For gambling, handicap shots and where they fall in the match is far more important than par.
I really wonder when I see scorecards where an "8" is getting shots on holes #10 and 16,17, and 18, if the handicap chairman/card printer has ever played match play before (the "8" may never get to use his final 3 shots) and certainly if it's a game that involves presses such a handicap layout is useless and renders the final holes strategically meaningless in an actual money match as no prudent gambler is going to press an opponent with 37.5 % of his opponent's shots falling in the last 3 holes.

[Tim Martin]

I would be really interested to hear some thoughts on why par does or does not matter to people.


I sit on the fence in this debate and can appreciate both sides ... some days I truly believe it doesn't matter and other days I think it does have a some sort of purpose.


Any thoughts?

For gambling

For gambling "junk"
For Stableford
For drama-many 1/2 par holes create drama(birdies and bogies) a la Augusta,
Otherwise not really




OT-For gambling, handicap shots and where they fall in the match is far more important than par.
I really wonder when I see scorecards where an "8" is getting shots on holes #10 and 16,17, and 18, if the handicap chairman/card printer has ever played match play before (the "8" may never get to use his final 3 shots) and certainly if it's a game that involves presses such a handicap layout is useless and renders the final holes strategically meaningless in an actual money match as no prudent gambler is going to press an opponent with 37.5 % of his opponent's shots falling in the last 3 holes.

Merion East has the 6 4,2 handicap holes fall on 14, 16 and 18 respectively. I wonder how often the “hog press” is floated on 18? I’ll answer my own question and say way more often than it’s accepted.

[Thomas Dai]

OT-For gambling, handicap shots and where they fall in the match is far more important than par.

Spot-on in amateur/handicap gambling matchplay.
But of course before you can specify the holes on which the shots will fall in matchplay those involved in the match have to have a handicap and to calculate a handicap you need to have a benchmark to calculate from. And that benchmark in golf is presently referred to as par. So par (or an equivalently benchmark) does matter.
Atb


PS - as to the holes where the shots will fall, ie the SI, it is worth noting is that some U.K. clubs now now adopt two SI’s. One for matchplay and one for stableford as the importance of which hole the strokes fall varies between them depending on the game/event in question. This though is another rabbit hole to visit.
Atb

[Michael Felton]

Couple of thoughts.


Par absolutely matters for ESC


There are times where I'm sure people play suboptimally as a result of the number on the card. on Walton Heath New, 12 and 13 are a long tough par 4 and a relatively short par 5. They run parallel to each other in opposite directions. I always treat the two holes as par 9. If 12 is into the wind, then that's the 5 and 13 is the 4. If 12 is downwind, that's the 4 and 13 is the 5.


I got a 2 on the 7th at Bethpage Black. They played that as a par 4 for one of the tournaments held there, but it's a 5 on the card. Anyone who wants to argue that was not an albatross can go take a long walk off a short pier.

[John Kavanaugh]

I got a 2 on the 7th at Bethpage Black. They played that as a par 4 for one of the tournaments held there, but it's a 5 on the card. Anyone who wants to argue that was not an albatross can go take a long walk off a short pier.

More details please. Were you playing the red tees? Winter rules?


I'll pre-judge. Red tees and anything less than a four iron on the approach makes it an eagle.

[Michael Felton]

I got a 2 on the 7th at Bethpage Black. They played that as a par 4 for one of the tournaments held there, but it's a 5 on the card. Anyone who wants to argue that was not an albatross can go take a long walk off a short pier.

More details please. Were you playing the red tees? Winter rules?


I'll pre-judge. Red tees and anything less than a four iron on the approach makes it an eagle.

White tees and it was a 3 iron from 202. Not winter rules - ball played down.

[Garland Bayley]

Yes Dai,

The current handicap system has been degraded by needlessly incorporating par into the calculation.

It has never been necessary.

[Peter Pallotta]

Garland - I think you might be very right about my career round ending in a crash and burn because of my addiction to par!
Ken: see above, but man it's tough for me mind to wrap around the concept of scoring off of 'four'

[Garland Bayley]

...
I got a 2 on the 7th at Bethpage Black. They played that as a par 4 for one of the tournaments held there, but it's a 5 on the card. Anyone who wants to argue that was not an albatross can go take a long walk off a short pier.

John VDB has the same dilemma. Played a tournament at his home course, and made a two at a hole he regularly plays as a par five, but was designated par four for the tournament. My recollection was he felt obligated to consider it an eagle. Don't walk down that pier with him. He's a big guy, and you might take an unwanted swim.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,
What is wrong with forcing the best players to play from 6200 yards and what if the course still allowed someone like Bryson to hit his driver a half dozen times or more if he wanted?  I am not talking chip and putt for these guys, I am talking about a real test.

I guess I really don't understand what point you are making about par with your posts. Perhaps you can flesh it out further.

[John Kavanaugh]

I got a 2 on the 7th at Bethpage Black. They played that as a par 4 for one of the tournaments held there, but it's a 5 on the card. Anyone who wants to argue that was not an albatross can go take a long walk off a short pier.

More details please. Were you playing the red tees? Winter rules?


I'll pre-judge. Red tees and anything less than a four iron on the approach makes it an eagle.

White tees and it was a 3 iron from 202. Not winter rules - ball played down.

100% legit. Congrats!!!


Note: If you call a hybrid a 3 iron please pass go.

[Mark_Fine]

Garland,
Par is what now dictates how essentially all golf courses get designed and built.  Championship courses are designed to have an overall par of 70-72 for 18 holes. Most want 4 par threes, 10 par fours and 4 par fives.  What if there were only 4-6 par fours and 8-10 par threes?  Just think how much cost/real estate/… could be saved.  Why not an overall par of 65 or 66?

[Paul Jones]

Garland,
Par is what now dictates how essentially all golf courses get designed and built.  Championship courses are designed to have an overall par of 70-72 for 18 holes. Most want 4 par threes, 10 par fours and 4 par fives.  What if there were only 4-6 par fours and 8-10 par threes?  Just think how much cost/real estate/… could be saved.  Why not an overall par of 65 or 66?

Mark,


Audubon Park in New Orleans did just that and more - "The competitive 18-hole course is a par 62, 4,220-yard layout set among hundred year-old oak trees that includes twelve par 3s, four par 4s, and two par 5s."

[Mark_Fine]

Paul,
That is awesome.  I believe you will see more courses like this including ones that could host a professional golf tournament and not be considered chip and putt/ giggle golf as Tiger calls it 

[Anthony Gray]

 Love this from 1995. The quest to par The Road Hole.


 [size=78%]https://vault.si.com/vault/1995/07/24/the-author-finds-out-firsthand-why-the-road-hole-at-st-andrews-site-of-this-weeks-british-open-is-the-worlds-hardest-par-4[/size]

[Sean_A]

OT-For gambling, handicap shots and where they fall in the match is far more important than par.

Spot-on in amateur/handicap gambling matchplay.
But of course before you can specify the holes on which the shots will fall in matchplay those involved in the match have to have a handicap and to calculate a handicap you need to have a benchmark to calculate from. And that benchmark in golf is presently referred to as par. So par (or an equivalently benchmark) does matter.
Atb


PS - as to the holes where the shots will fall, ie the SI, it is worth noting is that some U.K. clubs now now adopt two SI’s. One for matchplay and one for stableford as the importance of which hole the strokes fall varies between them depending on the game/event in question. This though is another rabbit hole to visit.
Atb

Not true. You could easily have handicaps off scoring difficulty relative to 4. Par plays no part really.

Ciao

[Michael Felton]

I got a 2 on the 7th at Bethpage Black. They played that as a par 4 for one of the tournaments held there, but it's a 5 on the card. Anyone who wants to argue that was not an albatross can go take a long walk off a short pier.

More details please. Were you playing the red tees? Winter rules?


I'll pre-judge. Red tees and anything less than a four iron on the approach makes it an eagle.

White tees and it was a 3 iron from 202. Not winter rules - ball played down.

100% legit. Congrats!!!


Note: If you call a hybrid a 3 iron please pass go.

Hybrid schmybrid - I still carry a 2 iron (Titleist 714cb for 2-4; mb for 5+)

[JESII]

That’s a great chip out weapon

[Thomas Dai]

“Par (or an equivalent benchmark).”
Atb

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